Avodah Mailing List

Volume 34: Number 137

Mon, 31 Oct 2016

• 1. Re: running creates electricity (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: running creates electricity (Chaim Tatel)
• 3. Re: running creates electricity (Lisa Liel)
• 4. Re: R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot fly from Ben Gurion (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: running creates electricity (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot fly from Ben Gurion (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot fly from Ben Gurion ()
• 8. Re: R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot fly from Ben Gurion (Isaac Balbin)
• 9. Re: R' Nissim Karelitz's Beis Din: Kohanim cannot fly from Ben Gurion (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: running creates electricity (Eli Turkel)
• 11. Re: Rav Melamed on Metal Pots (Isaac Balbin)
• 12. Re: Rav Melamed on Metal Pots (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: running creates electricity (Simon Montagu)

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 08:35:46PM +0200, Lisa Liel wrote:
: I don't see why such clothing wouldn't be muktzeh.

I am inclined to agree with Zev, I don't know of an issur inherent in
electonics itself, but what you're doing with it.

I mean "electronics" in contrast to the higher-power implications had
I written "electricity". House power may inherently raise issues: Is is
boneh to plug in a plug? The sparking of various contacts may be pesiq
reishei delo nicha lei in many cases. Etc... But with battery powered
stuff, or this shirt, these issues do not arise.

Assuming one can buy a garment that doesn't have an assur device, and
is only used to charge a battery that isn't used until after Shabbos.
If the charging is mutar, then the clothing is a keli shemelakhto leheter,
and why would it be muqtzah?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

Eli Turkel asked:

"one can create electricity on ones clothing by running.
Is this allowed on shabbat?"

I would venture to say it's OK.
The Gemara in Masechet Eruvin (100) discusses the issue of whether one is
permitted to walk on grass on Shabbat, given the possibility that he may
uproot blades of grass in the process, unintentionally violating the
prohibition of "Tolesh" ? uprooting plants on Shabbat.

The Shulchan Aruch (336:3) writes that one may, in fact, walk on grass on
Shabbat, because Halacha follows the view of Rabbi Shimon who allows
performing an act on Shabbat that might result in an unintentional Melacha
(forbidden activity). So long as it is not certain that the Melacha will
result from the given action, one may perform that action despite the
possibility of a Melacha occurring as a result.

Therefore, one may walk on Shabbat over grass of any kind, whether it is
moist or dry. One may even walk on grass while barefoot, despite the fact
that grass might stick to his feet and thus be detached from the ground. It
should be noted, however, that if grass does stick to one's feet, he may
not remove it by hand, since the grass is considered Muktzeh (forbidden to
be handled on Shabbat). He is allowed to shake the grass off or rub his
foot against a surface to remove it, but he may not remove it with his hand.

see http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=1088 for more info.

Chaim Tatel, Outer Golus
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On 10/31/2016 8:29 PM, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> On 31/10/16 13:53, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>> one can create electricity on ones clothing by running.
>> Is this allowed on shabbat?
...
> I don't think anyone has a problem on Shabbos with electricity itself. 
> It's *doing* things with electricity that raises various problems...

I don't see why such clothing wouldn't be muktzeh.

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 01:32:37PM -0400, RnTK wrote:
: At any given point in the universe, what do the words "above" and "below"  
: even /mean/?

Well, if the meis was buried on earth, this question is relatively easily
answered. Lemaalah appears to be defined relative to the center of the
earth, so above and below desribe a wedge that is a point at the center
of the planet, has a cross-section that is the neis, and gets wider as
it goes up, to stay a constant fraction of an ever larger oblate spheroid.

IOW, all points in lines that run from the center of the earth through the
meis and are beyond the meis on that line segment would be lemaalah of it.

But what if the person were buried on Mars. Would "above" be a wedge
starting at the center of Mars? Or would it be defined by the rapidly
changing line from the middle of the earth? How geocentric are we?

: The curvature of the earth may not be relevant but the earth's rotation  
: around its axis surely is.  Our planet is rotating at a rate of  about a 
: thousand miles an hour.  It's also moving around the sun at about  66,000 miles 
: an hour..


So what's releavant is the airplane's location relative to the meis.

...
: But how far out in space is this true?  If you were standing in a  
: graveyard and you looked up and saw, say, Orion's belt, would that mean that a  
: kohen could not travel to one of Orion's stars because the tumah from the  
: cemetery extends all the way UP to those stars?  But no, in the course of  the 
: night, Orion moves!  (Well, our planet moves.)  So now where is  "up"?  Where 
: is "above"?

So then a kohein couldn't be on any planetary body that passes a point
over a meis while the kohein is there. Yes, that would be tough.

More likely RET is correct, and someone so far above the source of tum'ah
that the human eye can't see it isn't tamei. Just because that seems
consistent to me with halakhah in general. But we would need proof;
my personal preferences are unsupported.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The trick is learning to be passionate in one's
mi...@aishdas.org        ideals, but compassionate to one's peers.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Eli Turkel asked:

"one can create electricity on ones clothing by running.
Is this allowed on shabbat?"

Depends on your sevara for the seeming bat kol which said electricity is
forbidden on Shabbat and how quickly you think it will be reevaluated.	I?d
say probably not an issue in this case according to most authorities IF
there is no intent (e.g. storage for later use).  However if you are a
molid believer then perhaps even this could be an issue  (R. Yitzchak
Schmelkes, Beit Yitzchak, Hashmatot to Y.D. 2:31, is of the opinion that
completing a circuit constitutes a violation of molid, the prohibition
against imbuing an object with a new property.)
KT
Joel Rich
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On 31/10/16 14:52, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> But what if the person were buried on Mars. Would "above" be a wedge
> starting at the center of Mars? Or would it be defined by the rapidly
> changing line from the middle of the earth? How geocentric are we?

Lich'ora we are very geocentric.  Everything in Torah seems to support 
such a view.  This is the Eretz where man was created and the Torah was 
given, and where the Machon Leshivtecha is located.  Thus it is the 
privileged point of view from which the rest of the universe is to be 
regarded.


> More likely RET is correct, and someone so far above the source of
 > tum'ah that the human eye can't see it isn't tamei. Just because
 > that seems consistent to me with halakhah in general.

Then no grave should be tamei because the body is covered and thus 
invisible.  It seems to me that the rule that invisible things are 
treated as non-existent applies only to things that are invisible in 
themselves, not merely invisible to you because of your distance, just 
as we don't apply it if they're merely invisible to you because of your 
blindness, or because your eyes are closed, or because it's dark.


-- 
Zev Sero                Hit the road, Jack
z...@sero.name           but please come back once more

 
From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

No  matter where in the universe you are, you are above every point on a 
line  that extends between you and the centre, and below every point on 
that  line's infinite extension.  
-- 
Zev  Sero                 



>>>>
 
 
I don't believe there is any halachic source that defines "above" this  
way.  Anyway, center of what?  A line between the center of earth and  you -- 
even if you're standing on a distant planet or star?  Maybe if you  went to 
Mars, "above" would be the extension of a line between the center of  Mars 
and you?  Or would it always be the extended line from the center  of earth, 
no matter where else in the universe you were?
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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> Don't Lubavitcher kohanim go to the cemetery wearing some kind of a box?
> Why wouldn't being in an enclosed airplane be the same thing?  Not
> answering the question, just asking it.

> --Toby Katz

This is a also the issue. There is a complicated sugya about whether
an Ohel Zaruk (a moving tent) is considered a tent. It intersects with
the issue of a dead body in the underbelly of a plane while a cohen is
above. It also depends on whether there is requisite distance between a
coffin (in chutz looretz or on a plane). I have diagrams from the Posek of
El Al of how to put a coffin into another container. The Matzeiva is also
an issue and whether it forms a barrier. The composition of new metals
on the plane. I once learned all this and was convinced there were enough
mitigating tziruf of heterim. I needed to accompany a body that was being
reinterred in Israel and I'm a Cohen. Moro Vrabbi Rav Schachter did not
allow me bit was lenient if a cohen flies over graves. My memory just
recalled an absolutely brilliant response from rav Itzeleh volozhiner
where his logic seems impeccable to permit. I think I discussed it with
Rav Schachter who told me that in general Rav itzeleh's Psokim as good
as they were and wonderful to learn were not accepted. This was years
ago and my memory is flakey. I may have some emails where i discuss with
other Rabonim before asking for the Psak from Rav Hershel. In summary,
he allowed travel over, but not travel IN a plane if you know lechatchilla
there is a body on board. I hope I didnt misquote Rav Schachter!

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 03:52:27PM -0400, via Avodah wrote:
: From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
:> No  matter where in the universe you are, you are above every point on a 
:> line  that extends between you and the centre, and below every point on 
:> that  line's infinite extension.  

: I don't believe there is any halachic source that defines "above" this  
: way.  Anyway, center of what?  A line between the center of earth and  you...

Well, if the line is at the center of earth, then that's the definition
we all use when we use "lemaalah" in the naive sense of "away from
the earth, toward the sky". Just made more rigorous.

: even if you're standing on a distant planet or star?  Maybe if you  went to 
: Mars, "above" would be the extension of a line between the center of  Mars 
: and you? ...

Interesting question, but it doesn't need to be answered in order to
address the airplane question. The difference between airplanes and a
kohein in a cart riding over a body is one of degree.

And, of course, whether the invisibility of a meis due to distance and
apparent size is more like something that is invisibly small at any
distance, or more like something that is blocked from view.

If the former, the airplane is beyond a quatitative line that the cart
is not.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             There's only one corner of the universe
mi...@aishdas.org        you can be certain of improving,
http://www.aishdas.org   and that's your own self.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 - Aldous Huxley

From
http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/journal/broyde_1.htm
by Rabbis Broyde and Jachter

D. Static Electricity
Whenever it is permissible to separate (or wear) clothes on Shabbat if that
action will generate static electricity is a topic that a number of
decisors have addressed. If one adopts Rabbi Auerbach's aforementioned
lenient ruling regarding the creation of sparks during use of a circuit,
one might be lenient in this regard as well. Indeed, Rabbi Auerbach is
cited (*Shemirat Shabbat Kehilchata* 15:72) as maintaining that the
unintentional creation of static electricity from clothes does not pose a
halachic problem.

Rabbi Eliezer Waldenberg (*Tzitz Eliezer* 7:10) rules leniently in this
regard also. Rabbi Waldenberg Argues that these sparks last hardly a moment
and have no impact whatsoever. In addition, there is no precedent for these
sparks in the labor performed during the construction and functioning of
the tabernacle, and hence there is no precedent whatsoever to classify the
creation of these sparks as forbidden acts of labor. Therefore, he rules
that the unintentional creation of static electricity does not pose a
halachic problem. At the conclusion of his responsum, Rabbi Waldenberg adds
another consideration to be lenient in this regard - that one does not
intend to create the static electricity.

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef's primary reason to rule leniently in this matter (*Yabia
Omer* 5:27 and *Yechave Daat *2:46) is based on the lack of intent to
create the sparks. Rabbi Yosef writes that unintentional acts from which no
benefit is derived (*pesik resha delo nichah lei*) are permitted if the
underlying prohibition is itself only a rabbinic violation; he agrees that
if a biblical violation would occur, they are prohibited. This leniency is
not universally accepted.



As distinct from static electricity the new "sweaters" have the ability to
store this electricity and it is done intentionally. Hence R Waldenberg's
heter that the static electricity lasts only a second doesn't hold
Furthermore, it is now done on purpose eliminating another heter. ROY also
uses the lack of intent which is no longer relevant

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 9:04 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 08:35:46PM +0200, Lisa Liel wrote:
> : I don't see why such clothing wouldn't be muktzeh.
>
> I am inclined to agree with Zev, I don't know of an issur inherent in
> electonics itself, but what you're doing with it.
>
> I mean "electronics" in contrast to the higher-power implications had
> I written "electricity". House power may inherently raise issues: Is is
> boneh to plug in a plug? The sparking of various contacts may be pesiq
> reishei delo nicha lei in many cases. Etc... But with battery powered
> stuff, or this shirt, these issues do not arise.
>
> Assuming one can buy a garment that doesn't have an assur device, and
> is only used to charge a battery that isn't used until after Shabbos.
> If the charging is mutar, then the clothing is a keli shemelakhto leheter,
> and why would it be muqtzah?
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
> mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
> http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
> Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)
>



-- 
Eli Turkel
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On the issue of Kefeilah and Nosen Taam and bitul there is an interesting
comment from Rav Usher Weiss in his Shaylos and Tshuvos on whisky in
sherry casks (which he permits). He asis where is there a precedent for
Nosen Taam that takes 8-21 years in Shas to occur. He clearly subscribes
to the Halachic mesora based approach of Psak and not chemistry. He
does however also address the issue of those experts who can discern
the taste in blind tests.

On Tue, Nov 01, 2016 at 07:28:00AM +1100, Isaac Balbin wrote:
: On the issue of Kefeilah and Nosen Taam and bitul there is an interesting
: comment from Rav Usher Weiss in his Shaylos and Tshuvos on whisky in
: sherry casks...

I am lost. RMF makes a convincing argument that nosein ta'am is not an
issue for stam yeinam, such as sherry casks. His proof, bitul besheish.
One part wine to 6 parts water is easily tastable.

Leshitaso, 1:6 works because too much mezigah, and the mixture isn't
yayin -- as the gemara says WRT 4 kosos. One doesn't need bitul, because
the gezeira of stam yeinam doesn't apply.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Eli Turkel via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> From http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/journal/broyde_1.htm
> by Rabbis Broyde and Jachter
>
> D. Static Electricity
....
> Rabbi Eliezer Waldenberg (*Tzitz Eliezer* 7:10) rules leniently in this
> regard also. Rabbi Waldenberg Argues that these sparks last hardly a moment
> and have no impact whatsoever. In addition, there is no precedent for these
> sparks in the labor performed during the construction and functioning of
> the tabernacle, and hence there is no precedent whatsoever to classify the
> creation of these sparks as forbidden acts of labor...
...
> As distinct from static electricity the new "sweaters" have the ability to
> store this electricity and it is done intentionally. Hence R Waldenberg's
> heter that the static electricity lasts only a second doesn't hold....

R. Waldenberg's senif that "there is no precedent for these sparks in the
labor performed during the construction and functioning of the tabernacle"
presumably still applies to solar cells, triboelectric nanogenerators, and
elongated supercapacitors.


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