Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 5

Sun, 08 Jan 2017

• 1. The Importance of Secular Subjects (Professor L. Levine)
• 2. Vayigash (r)
• 3. Re: The Many Facets of Asarah B'Teves (elazar teitz)
• 4. Re: The Many Facets of Asarah B'Teves (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Tichleh Regel Min Hashuk ()
• 6. Re: yaakov vs yehuda (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Tichleh Regel Min Hashuk (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: yaakov vs yehuda (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: The Many Facets of Asarah B'Teves (Akiva Miller)
• 10. Fasts That Fall On Friday Are Observed On Friday (Jay F. Shachter)
• 11. Re: Fasts That Fall On Friday Are Observed On Friday (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: The Many Facets of Asarah B'Teves (Zev Sero)

The letter below appears on pages 109 - 110 of this week's Flatbush Jewish Journal.


Last week's issue of the Flatbush Jewish Journal featured some letters
criticizing a letter in an earlier issue of the paper by  "Lakewood Lamdan"
who suggested that secular subjects not be taught in yeshivas.	These
letters focused on the point that without a proper secular education
yeshiva boys will not be able to enter the job market and support their
families.  Very few men stay in learning forever, and hence, after a
certain period of time, they are faced with the challenge of earning a
Parnassa.  While some will go into Chinuch, not everyone is cut out to meet
the challenges of being a rebbe.  Most will have to look for employment in
other venues.

However,  none of the letters mentioned that a decent secular education is
a prerequisite for success in learning Torah.  (In light of this,  I simply
cannot understand how this Lakewood Lamdan could call for the elimination
of secular studies in yeshiva high schools.)  Below are some sources
stressing the importance of secular education related to Torah learning.

There is the opinion of the GRA that is given by R. Barukh Schick of Shklov
in the introduction to his Hebrew translation of Euclid?s book on geometry,
Sefer Uklidos (The Hague, 1780). There he writes

When I was in the illustrious city of Vilna in the presence of the Rav, the
light, the great Gaon, my master and teacher, the light of the eyes of the
exile, the renowned pious one [may HaShem protect and save him] Rav
Eliyahu, in the month of Teves 5538 [January 1778], I heard from his holy
mouth that according to what a person is lacking in knowledge of the ?other
wisdoms?, correspondingly he will be lacking one hundred portions in the
wisdom of the Torah, because the Torah and the ?other wisdoms? are
inextricably linked together ?

R. Yhonason Eybeschutz wrote in Yaaros Devash 2:7 (as translated by L. Levi in Torah and Science   pages 24-25):

For all the sciences are ?condiments? and are necessary for our Torah, such
as the science of mathematics, which is the science of measurements and
includes the science of numbers, geometry, and algebra and is very
essential for the measurements required in connection with the Eglah Arufah
and the cities of the Levites and the cities of refuge as well as the
Sabbath boundaries of our cities. The science of weights [i.e., mechanics]
is necessary for the judiciary, to scrutinize in detail whether scales are
used honestly or fraudulently. The science of vision [optics] is necessary
for the Sanhedrin to clarify the deceits perpetrated by idolatrous priests;
furthermore, the need for this science is great in connection with
examining witnesses, who claim they stood at a distance and saw the scene,
to determine whether the arc of vision extends so far straight or bent. The
science of astronomy is a science of the Jews, the secret of leap years to
know the paths of the constellation
 s and to sanctify the new moon. The science of nature which includes the
 science of medicine in general is very important for distinguishing the
 blood of the Niddah whether it is pure or impure ? and how much more is it
 necessary when one strikes his fellow man in order to ascertain whether
 the blow was mortal, and if he died whether he died because of it, and for
 what disease one may desecrate the Sabbath. Regarding botany, how great is
 the power of the Sages in connection with kilayim [mixed crops]! Here too
 we may mention zoology, to know which animals may be hybridized; and
 chemistry, which is important in connection with the metals used in the
 tabernacle, etc.

Clearly according to the GRA and R. Yhonason Eybeschutz secular knowledge is important for success in Torah learning.

Of course,  Limudei Chol can in no way compete with the importance of
Limudei Kodesh.  Indeed,  Rav Shimon Schwab wrote the following  in an
article entitled "The Jews in Golus: How High a Profile" (Jewish Observer,
Feb. 1988 and reprinted in Selected Writings pp. 290-300) in a section with
the heading "An Approach to the Non-Jew"

If all the nations of the world - and it's the tendency today to think this
way - are depraved, foolish and wicked, it is no distinction to be better
than those who are depraved, foolish and wicked. That is no basis for
praise to the Ribbono Shel Olam. By the same token, gratitude for being
given the Torah cannot be meaningful if all non-Torah science is nonsense,
if all secular knowledge is without value. What glory is ascribed to Torah
knowledge if its distinction is simply that it is superior to nonsense? To
the contrary, Chazal have told us that there is indeed chachma (wisdom)
amongst the nations. As a matter of fact, upon seeing a wise non-Jew, one
pronounces a blessing, praising G-d 'for having given of His knowledge to
[a creature of] flesh-and-blood.'  But all their knowledge - all their
sciences and all their wisdom - shrinks into absolute nothingness before
the majesty of one kutzo shel Yud (small stroke) of the sacred Torah.?

Professor Yitzchok Levine

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In an interview (Newsweek, December 19, 1966), Israeli Prime Minister,
Levi Eshkol, put it bluntly: "It was an unjust condemnation. These 15
nations don't say a word about how we should protect ourselves. They
want to say, "you Jews have to sit and be butchered. We were butchered
wholesale in Europe under the Nazis. We didn't gather our remnants
together; we didn't gather two and a half million Jews in this country to
be butchered -- not wholesale and not singly." Then the Prime Minister
of Israel slammed his hand on the desk and shouted, "The Hell with it,
it's enough!"

In this week's portion of Vayigash, that is what Judah taught. The lesson
is vital. It is a lesson of daring courage and of responsibility. This
is true not only about Jews and world issues -- as grave and distressing
as they are. Prime Minister Eshkol did exactly as Judah did -- when it
was necessary, he shouted. Judah's position is a very simple one. "There
are times that one must not remain silent."

The Midrash says: Judah said to Joseph, "Do you think you can take
Benjamin and there will be peace in my Father's (note the upper case "F")
house? Why, if you keep Benjamin, we will tear this place apart!" Judah
roared, in a loud roar and his voice was heard four hundred yards
away. "Yes, we are all brothers. Chained and linked in each other's hand,
tied and bound to each other's heart. I am speaking to you, Mr. Prince,
not knowing who you are; I am speaking from the depths of my heart. What I
say should penetrate your mind and heart. I am not speaking for myself. I
am not shouting or protesting in my own behalf, but rather protesting
an injustice perpetrated against my brother." In silence we tolerated
century after century of inhumanity and wholesale butchery. That is why
Prime Minister Eshkol was shouting. To be moved by your conscience and
protest; to be moved by your emotions and protest; to alert the world
to evil so that it may be eradicated and it may be replaced by the good.

We pray that the Holocaust victims have not died in vain and that
they shall never be forgotten and always be remembered. They died al
Kiddush HaShem. May their memories not only be for a blessing but for
reminding us that we must not stand idly by the blood of our brothers
and sisters. Our love, care and remembrance of them shall measure up
to the love, care and concern that former Israeli Prime Minister, Levi
Eshkol had for the Jews who perished in the Shoah.

RYLevine quoted "Insights into Halacha:"
<<For example, exclusive to this fast is that it is the only one that
we do actually observe as a fast on a Friday. Even Tisha B?Av, which
commemorates the  actual destructions of our Batei HaMikdash, gets
pushed off.>>

RZSero responded:

<Not true.  We never push off a fast because it's on a Friday (except Yom
Kippur).  It's just that none of the other major fasts ever happen to
fall on a Friday.   If they did, there is no question at all that we
would fast.  Minor fasts, such as the fasts observed by the Chevraya
Kadishaya, *can* fall on Friday, and when they do they are completed.>

     Another fast that can fall out on Friday, and is then observed on that
day, is Ta'anis B'chorim on erev Pesach (though few actually fast, because
of attending a s'udas mitzvah).

     It should be noted, though, that there* is* an avoidance of Friday
fasting.  When a  fast falls out on Shabbos but cannot be observed on
Sunday (Ta'anis Esther and Ta'anis B'chorim), it is pushed back to Thursday
rather than Friday.
EMT
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On 06/01/17 13:08, elazar teitz via Avodah wrote:
>      It should be noted, though, that there_is_ an avoidance of Friday
> fasting.  When a  fast falls out on Shabbos but cannot be observed on
> Sunday (Ta'anis Esther and Ta'anis B'chorim), it is pushed back to
> Thursday rather than Friday.

Yes, if we can choose a day, we don't choose Friday, so as not to go 
into Shabbos fasting.  Also because Mondays and Thursdays are 
traditionally appropriate days for fasting, so if we have a choice why 
not go for them.

But of course only happy fasts are pulled back rather than pushed 
forward; sad ones are delayed, because we're not eager to face them, and 
maybe Moshiach will come and we won't have to fast at all, whereas the 
happy fasts will go on anyway.

I wonder whether another reason to avoid Friday fasting might not be 
that it's a traditional day for fasting among Xians.  I got this idea 
because an early Xian manual exhorts Xians not to fast on Mondays or 
Thursdays, so as not to appear like Jews, but rather to prefer fasting 
on Tuesdays and Fridays.  So I wonder whether a similar sentiment among 
Jews may have led to shunning Friday fasts, when possible.  But this is 
pure speculation, since there's enough reason to avoid it anyway.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

 

From: Akiva Miller via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

> Thus, if shops close at midnight  most nights of the week,
> midnight would be the time of Tichleh Regel Min  Hashuk even
> on Friday night and Motzai Shabbos.
> But again I  don't really think "shuk" means literally "market"
> here but more  generally, outside, out on the streets. [--TK]

As a matter of wording and  meaning, I accept this. But what Pirsumei Nisa
would be  accomplished?

The Jews are at home eating the seudah on Friday night.  They are not on the
streets as late as during the week. Why can't I simply  light before
Shabbos, and Jews will see the neros while they come home from  shul, quite
possibly during bein hashmashos? Why do they need to burn longer  than that?

Suppose .... the Jews are already home, but there are  still plenty of 
non-Jews in
the streets. ....Is that going to  accomplish
Pirsumei Nisa?

Akiva Miller

 
 
>>>>
My understanding is that while you want people outside (Jews and goyim) to  
see the Chanuka lights, pirsumei nisa is already accomplished if the family 
 inside the house sees the lights or even if just the person who lit them 
sees  them.
 
The lights are best seen after dark.  Bein hashemashos it's still  light 
outside.  Our little lights competing with the sun, even the fading  sun -- 
don't do much.  Me'at min ha'ohr docheh harbeh min hachoshech  -- does a lot, 
symbolically very meaningful.  
 
We notice miracles in times of darkness.  When a person has a terrible  
illness and miraculously recovers we say, " Baruch Hashem!  What a  nes!"  When 
a person is perfectly fine and nothing happens we don't say,  "What a 
miracle!  He's walking and talking just great!"  That  would be like a candle in 
the daytime.  Everything's fine, who notices just  one more little thing 
that's also fine?
 
The whole point of Chanuka, it seems to me, is that the lights are  
symbolic; when things seemed darkest -- that's when we had miraculous  light.
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


-------------------------------------------------------------------
 


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On 06/01/17 14:21, Micha Berger wrote:
> Bereishis 44:7 says "vayomeru eilav". Yehudah was the spokesman

What's your source for that?

 > But what if it wasn't? Would the question in the OP be
 > any different if asked about why Naftali or Shim'on's words weren't
 > fulfilled despite the tenai?

Maybe not, but we don't know.  The question is specifically about 
Yehuda, and we don't know what he said.


 > (For that matter, whomever said it, the chumash presents it as the
 > group's sentiment -- including Yehudah.)

The sentiment isn't what matters, it's the words that can do harm 
regardless of the sentiment behind them.

 > I still think it reads as an offer to Yosef, and not an oath to the
 > Broei, and that's why this statement isn't like Yaaqov's.

How is it different from Yehuda's "vechatasi le'avi". The rule operative 
here is that whatever a tzadik says, even if it's attached to a 
condition that was not fulfilled, happens anyway.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Fri, Jan 06, 2017 at 07:49:45AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Suppose I had some sort of system by which the neros are lit after tzeis
: and the Jews are already home, but there are still plenty of non-Jews in
: the streets...

Isn't this the aforementioned machloqes between the Rif and Rashi (at
least as most contemporary gedolim understand Rashi)? If the gemara's
mention is of Jews doing a job that runs late (or as per RMShternbuch,
the Jewish customers of a non-Jew) there is no indication that there is
pirsumei nisa to non-Jews.

But if we follow Rashi, that the gemara is talking about a non-Jewish
ethnicity "Tamuda'im", then yes, there is pirsumei nisa to non-Jews.

Given the ethnicities of the Rishonim involved, I think that an
Ashkenazi who isn't a talmid of RMS can light as long as there are
non-Jews about.

RMS is definitely trying to avoid that conclusion. His point is
to conclude that everyone holds PN is only in front of Jews.

But the Rif really just defuses this case as a ra'ayah there there is
pirsumei nisa when the audience isn't Jewish. He could still hold that
there is PN to non-Jews, but defines tamuda'im as people doing a job
rather than specifically a non-Jewish group for another reason.

:-)BBii!
-Micha
-- 
Micha Berger             You want to know how to paint a perfect
mi...@aishdas.org        painting?  It's easy.
http://www.aishdas.org   Make yourself perfect and then just paint
Fax: (270) 514-1507      naturally.              -Robert Pirsig

On Thu, Jan 05, 2017 at 09:44:27PM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: But the premise of this thread remains without foundation.  There is
: no record of Yehuda saying what was attributed to him, and therefore
: no question.

Bereishis 44:7 says "vayomeru eilav". Yehudah was the spokesman,
so it's most likely he was the one who spoke about whomever having
the cup dying. But what if it wasn't? Would the question in the OP be
any different if asked about why Naftali or Shim'on's words weren't
fulfilled despite the tenai? (For that matter, whomever said it, the
chumash presents it as the group's sentiment -- including Yehudah.)

I still think it reads as an offer to Yosef, and not an oath to the
Broei, and that's why this statement isn't like Yaaqov's.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

R' Zev Sero wrote:

> Not true.  We never push off a fast because it's on a Friday
> (except Yom Kippur).  It's just that none of the other major
> fasts ever happen to fall on a Friday.  If they did, there is
> no question at all that we would fast.  Minor fasts, such as
> the fasts observed by the Chevraya Kadishaya, *can* fall on
> Friday, and when they do they are completed.

There is a minor fast observed by the firstborn, and one could argue that
it not as minor as the one you mention. Yet, when it is scheduled for
Friday, it is held on a different day.

Akiva Miller
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>
> Minor fasts, such as the fasts observed by the Chevraya Kadishaya,
> *can* fall on Friday, and when they do they are completed.
>

Add to that the fast of the firstborn, which is observed on Friday
when it falls on Friday (or so I have been told).


> 
> We never push off a fast because it's on a Friday (except Yom
> Kippur).
>

This may be a pedantic distinction, but no, we do not push off Yom
Kippur when it falls on Friday.  We fiddled with the calendar so that
the 10th of Tishrey would not fall on Friday, but if the 10th of
Tishrey ever did fall on Friday, we would surely have fasted on that
day.  This is not the same thing as pushing off a fast, which means
observing it on a different day, e.g., fasting on the 10th of Av
instead of the 9th of Av.  A pedantic distinction, perhaps, but in my
opinion an important one; fasting on the 10th of Tishrey is serious
business.

                        Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
                        6424 N Whipple St
                        Chicago IL  60645-4111
                                (1-773)7613784   landline
                                (1-410)9964737   GoogleVoice
                                j...@m5.chicago.il.us
                                http://m5.chicago.il.us

                        "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"

On 06/01/17 09:40, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote:
>> We never push off a fast because it's on a Friday (except Yom
>> Kippur).
>>
> This may be a pedantic distinction, but no, we do not push off Yom
> Kippur when it falls on Friday.  We fiddled with the calendar so that
> the 10th of Tishrey would not fall on Friday, but if the 10th of
> Tishrey ever did fall on Friday, we would surely have fasted on that
> day.  This is not the same thing as pushing off a fast, which means
> observing it on a different day, e.g., fasting on the 10th of Av
> instead of the 9th of Av.  A pedantic distinction, perhaps, but in my
> opinion an important one; fasting on the 10th of Tishrey is serious
> business.

"Fiddled with the calendar" implies some kind of clever formula that has 
the amazing and useful result that the 10th of Tishri never happens 
falls on a Friday. But no, it's nothing as clever as that.  What we in 
fact do when the 10th of Tishri is going to fall on a Friday is simply 
push  it to the next day.  We don't move Yom Kippur to the 11th, because 
we can't, so instead we keep it on the 10th and move the 10th.  And of 
course moving the 10th means the rest of the month has to come with it. 
We move the whole month over a day, so that the 10th will be on the 
Shabbos instead of the Friday.  Sorry, to me such a crude method is 
"pushing off".

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On 06/01/17 15:37, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> There is a minor fast observed by the firstborn, and one could argue
> that it not as minor as the one you mention. Yet, when it is scheduled
> for Friday, it is held on a different day.

No, it isn't.   But when it's scheduled for *Shabbos*, and therefore has 
to be moved anyway, it isn't moved to Friday but to Thursday.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all


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