Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 46

Wed, 05 Apr 2017

• 1. Egg Matzas Mitzvah (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: Shul Practices (Ben Bradley)
• 3. Kitniyot (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Re: Shul Practices (Zev Sero)
• 5. Are Mitzvos Fungible (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 6. Al Zeh Gazru VeAl Zeh Lo Gazru - We have no authority to decree new gezeros (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 7. Pate de Foie Gras (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: kitnoyot (Akiva Miller)
• 9. Re: Shul Practices (Rich, Joel)
• 10. Re: Shul Practices (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: The Fungibility of Mitzvos (Akiva Miller)
• 12. Re: kitnoyot (Micha Berger)
• 13. More on Tefillin on Chol Moed (Prof. Levine)

I understand that one cannot use Egg Matza for the mitzva of Achilas Matza,
but I'm not sure exactly why. I'm aware of two different reasons, and they
seem mutually exclusive.

1) The Torah requires that this mitzva be done with "lechem oni" - poor
bread, plain and lacking the richness that it would have if it were made
with eggs, juice, oil, or the like.

2) Matza must be something that could have become chometz, but was baked
before chimutz could occur. According to those who hold that flour and pure
mei peiros will not ever become chometz, "matza ashira" isn't really
halachic matza at all.

I suspect that I am conflating various shitos, and that according to any
individual shita, one reason or the other will apply, but not both. Can
someone help me out?

Thanks!
Akiva Miller

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As I understand it, the purpose of reading the brachos from a card is
to make it clear that one is not reading them from the Torah.

I believe that's the reason for turning one's head to the side, haven't
seen that as the reason for using a card. And that's only according to the
opinion that the oleh leaves the Sefer Torah open while making the brachos.
The opinion that the Sefer Torah should be closed is for the same reason if
memory serves, and then of course no card would be needed at all.  So I
presume the reason for the card is simply for people who need it.
Given that the whole reason for having a designated baal koreh in the first
place was to save the embarassment of those who can't read their own aliya,
I'm bemused by the permission for someone to decide they'd like to read
their own aliya.
Unless you say that a well known talmid chacham, or a guest of honour, would not embarrass the other olim by reading his aliya since he's known as a scholar.

It does seem that avoiding the chashash of embarrassment was more important to chazal than to many contemporary kehillos. Maybe it needs some chizuk.

Ben
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And so, as more move into the area
whose minhagim exclude using peanut oil on Pesach, it becomes harder to
find KLP certified peanut oil, and all too quickly people forget what was
once the norm.

Which is a difference between Israel and USA   Israel with a large sefardi
community has top level hasgacha on kiniyot products   also many candies
now list that they contain lecithin so that the consumer can decide rather
than the hasgacha deciding
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On 04/04/17 17:27, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:
> Given that the whole reason for having a designated baal koreh in the
> first place was to save the embarassment of those who can't read their
> own aliya, I'm bemused by the permission for someone to decide they'd
> like to read their own aliya.

Since knowing how to lein, and especially knowing how to lein any given 
aliyah, is no longer an expected skill in most communities, it's no 
longer embarrassing that one doesn't know how, so if someone wants to do 
his own, why not?

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

Obviously, and in spite of all the stories of people selling their Olam Haba
it is a nonsense - good and evil deeds cannot be redeemed or transferred by
a financial transaction or any agreement

HOWEVER
if anyone is inspired to do a good [or evil] deed or desist doing an evil
[or good] deed
because of another persons influence
clearly that influencing person is rewarded accordingly

and so when we learn Torah
or do any other other Mitzvah
and we are inspired to do it because of an  institution or a person
be they in Olam HaEmes or in this world

a Zechis accrues for that person


Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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Although it has been said
on these hallowed pages
Al Zeh Gazru VeAl Zeh Lo Gazru - We have no authority to decree new gezeros

yet many felt that the new stainless steel Shechitah knives were forbidden
machicne Matza was forbidden
Ben PeKuAh is forbidden
they're even arguing that soft Matza is forbidden for Ashkenazim
etc.

But it is Kula Chada Gezeira
Thus newly discovered foods are Kitniyos

And whatever the truth is
we are V lucky that potato was not included
and not reversed
remember when peanuts were KLP?

Best,

Meir G. Rabi
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Daf Yomi learners just learned BB 73b. It looks to me like the gemara is
condemning, although on an aggadic level, the preparation of pate de foi
gras.

Since I can't quote the gemara, here's R' Steinzaltz's commentary (from
<https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Batra.73b.8?lang=bi&;with=all&lang2=en>:

    And Rabba bar bar Hana said: Once we were traveling in the desert and
    we saw these geese whose wings were sloping because they were so fat,
    and streams of oil flowed beneath them. I said to them: Shall we have a
    portion of you in the World-to-Come? One raised a wing, and one raised
    a leg, [signaling an affirmative response]. When I came before Rabbi
    Elazar, he said to me: The Jewish people will [eventually] be held
    accountable for [the suffering] of [the geese. Since the Jews do not
    repent, the geese are forced to continue to grow fat as they wait to be
    given to the Jewish people as a reward.]

Rashbam ("litein aleihem es hadin"):

    For in their sins, they delay mashiach. They, those geese, have tza'ar
    ba'alei chaim because of their fat.

Apparently even the messianic se'udah is insufficient grounds to justify
torturing geese for their fat.

Also implied is that the sin of making the geese suffer in their
obesity is not a sin so great at to itself holding up the mashiach's
arrival. Otherwise, R' Elazar would be describing a vicious cycle.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> I just went to a shiur from R Aviner who was more mekil on
> kitniyot products but felt that many of the foods that the OU
> gives a hechsher like farfel, bread sticks etc should be
> prohibited for the same reasons as kitniyot ie they can easily
> be mixed up with chametz.
>
> It seems the OU is more interested in literal kitniyot even if
> no longer makes sense and not all in products that have the
> same rationale as kitniyot but are not literally kiniyot.

I am both surprised and confused, by this post and almost all the ones that
followed.

It seems to me that people are getting confused between kitniyos and
gebroks.

Let's talk for a moment about communities that did refrain from gebroks in
recent centuries. Does Rav Aviner think that they didn't use matza meal for
cake? Anyone who refrained from making such cake are the ones who refrained
from gebroks, right?

So what new problem has arisen with "farfel, bread sticks etc"? Whatever
arguments you have against them today existed 200 years ago also, and they
were rejected by communities that ate gebroks.

I am not surprised that amei haaretz like myself have trouble understanding
the definitions of kitniyos. But one thing is for sure: That our rabanim
ought to understand that kitniyos and gebroks are two different things.

Some might respond that today's "farfel, bread sticks etc" are being made
not of matza meal but of potato and tapioca. I don't see that as relevant.
*ANY* definition of kitniyos has to be one that doesn't include matza meal.
And if matza meal is excluded, then you can't include potatoes merely
because they are so useful.

Akiva Miller

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> Since knowing how to lein, and especially knowing how to lein any
> given aliyah, is no longer an expected skill in most communities, it's
> no longer embarrassing that one doesn't know how, so if someone wants
> to do his own, why not?
> 
> -- 
Synagogue practices in particular are a very sensitive area, at least according to rabbi Soloveutchik. 
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On Tue, Apr 04, 2017 at 11:45:53PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: Since knowing how to lein, and especially knowing how to lein any
: given aliyah, is no longer an expected skill in most communities,
: it's no longer embarrassing that one doesn't know how, so if someone
: wants to do his own, why not?

Since when does logic have to do with emotions? Your line of reasoning
would work for robots, not people.

If everyone else is leining their own aliyah that day, someone who
can't may still be embarassed and decline taking an aliyah with the
ba'al qeri'ah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

R? Micha Berger quoted R? Natan Slifkin:

<<< I have found that while people are shocked when one challenges the
notion that you can learn Torah on behalf of someone who is sick, nobody
has yet actually come up with any classical sources demonstrating
otherwise. >>>

I?d like to suggest a very slight difference between two scenarios:

Suppose I say, ?Hashem, I am going to learn some Torah now, and I?d like
the s?char for this mitzvah to go to Ploni, instead of to me.? That seems
to be the situation that RNS is talking about.

But suppose I say, ?Hashem, I am going to learn some Torah now, and I?d
like *MY* s?char for this mitzvah to be that You heal Ploni, who is
currently ill?, or ?? that You elevate Ploni to a higher level in Gan
Eden?, or something similar.

My point is that if there is no mechanism to transfer s?char from one
person to another, perhaps we can still request that the s?char should take
a particular form, and it would result in the same effect.

I?m pretty sure that there *are* sources for requesting that the s?char
should take a certain form. More accurately, I recall cases where one
requests that his *onesh* should take a particular form, such as if it has
been decreed that one should lose a certain amount of money, it should
occur in tiny amounts over a long time, or some other similar request.


Akiva Miller
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On Wed, Apr 05, 2017 at 06:51:14AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: It seems to me that people are getting confused between kitniyos and
: gebroks.

I think the conversation works better as is.

Gebrochts is a minhag to avoid the possible manufacture of real chameitz
from any flour that happened to stay dry when the matzah was made.

Qitniyos is a minhag or multiple minhagim to avoid things that either:

1- are stored in the same silos as with chameitz, in which case it's much
like gebrochts in function. Or

2- are used in a manner similar to chameitz, and people might eat chameitz
thinking it's pea porridge or mustard seed or whatnot.

And these could indeed be divergant minhagim, where different explanations
became primary drivers in different areas, leading to difference in how
practice evolved.

But explanation #2 does open the door for the original question.

Pretzels made from oatmeal make it possible for someone to accidentally
eat real chameitz pretzels.

And if your ancestral version of qitniyos includes growing it to include
new items that make the same mistake possible, eg corn, then why not all
these gebrochts or potato / potato starch products -- not because they're
gebrochts (if they are), but because reason #2 applies.

: So what new problem has arisen with "farfel, bread sticks etc"? Whatever
: arguments you have against them today existed 200 years ago also, and they
: were rejected by communities that ate gebroks.

No, we didn't have factory kitchens making gebrochts bread sticks that
seem exactly like real ones. (If not of your favorite brand.) This really
is a recent development.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You are not a human being in search
mi...@aishdas.org        of a spiritual experience. You are a
http://www.aishdas.org   spiritual being immersed in a human
Fax: (270) 514-1507      experience. - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

R Samuel Svarc wrote on Areivim

>This, as it turns out, is a minority view. Not all Ashkenazim hold 
>that way, nor do Sefardim, nor a nice junk of the Litvishe wing.

 From http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/tefillinONmoed.htm

The Aruch Hashulchan notes that "recently" a practice among some 
Ashkenazic Jews has developed to refrain from wearing Tefillin on 
Chol Hamoed. He is referring to the practice of Chassidim, which was 
also the practice at the famed Volozhiner Yeshiva (as recorded by the 
Rav, Shiurim L'zeicher Aba Mori Zal p.119)

And from http://dinonline.org/2014/04/07/tefillin-on-chol-hamoed-pesach/

The Rema adds that the Ashkenaz custom is to wear Tefillin and recite 
a berachah, but because of the sensitivity of the topic the berachah 
should be recited quietly. Later authorities espouse the compromise 
noted by the Tur, meaning that Tefillin are worn but the berachah is 
not recited (see Taz 31:2; Mishnah Berurah 31:8).

YL


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