Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 47

Thu, 06 Apr 2017

• 1. Shabbos HaGadol (Cantor Wolberg)
• 2. Re: kitnoyot (Ben Waxman)
• 3. Food in the desert questions (Marty Bluke)
• 4. Re: Egg Matzas Mitzvah (Joshua Meisner)
• 5. Re: kitniyot (Marty Bluke)
• 6. Re: kitnoyot (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Egg Matzas Mitzvah (Akiva Miller)
• 8. staam daat (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Al Zeh Gazru VeAl Zeh Lo Gazru (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Re: kitnoyot (Micha Berger)
• 11. Working on Chol Moed (Professor L. Levine)

It is not easy to explain the origin of the Hagadol which is applied
to this coming Shabbos. In the Haftorah, the prophet Malachi speaks of
a Yom Hashem Hagadol which according to various customs 
is to be read when the Sabbath before Pesach happens to be
Erev Pesach. And yet the term Hagadol as applied to the Sabbath
before Passover has been accepted by all whether or not it falls on Erev Pesach.

The Midrash offers additional insight as to why this Shabbos is termed Hagadol 
and tells us something most of us have learned that on the Shabbos preceding
the 14th of Nissan (when the Pascal lamb was to be brought as an offering), the 
Egyptian masters entered into the homes of the Jews and noticed that each family
had a sheep tied to its bedposts. The Egyptians asked: ?What are you doing with 
our sheep?!? The Jews replied: ?We are going to slaughter it as an offering to our God.?
The Egyptian masters gritted their teeth in exasperation and walked out. This is 
another basis for the Shabbos preceding Pesach to be called the ?Great Shabbos.?
It is the Shabbos that the Jewish people experienced a miracle ? they were not 
killed by their masters because of their subordination to the Will of the Almighty and
they were not deterred by concern for their personal safety. THAT was ?greatness?
and they were, indeed, truly ?great.?

It is also interesting that every Shabbos symbolizes complete freedom ? freedom
from technology and the mundane. Pesach typifies freedom and redemption. The 
parallel to Shabbos is profound. May this Shabbos be the ?GREATEST!?

"The price of greatness is responsibility.?
Winston Churchill

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On 4/5/2017 12:51 PM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Does Rav Aviner think that they didn't use matza meal for cake? Anyone 
> who refrained from making such cake are the ones who refrained from 
> gebroks, right?

Did they use the chunky, roughly ground matza meal that is good for 
matza balls and that's about it or the finely ground stuff that you can 
get today which is no different than cake flour?

[Email #2. -micha]

On 4/4/2017 8:33 PM, Simon Montagu via Avodah wrote:
> We change minhagim all the time, for good and/or bad reasons and 
> halacha hasn't fallen apart yet. Why is this minhag different from all 
> other minhagim that people are so set against any change? 

If this one is different it is because people have set out to take down 
this minhag.  Whereas something like changing from an Ashkenazi white 
with black stripes tallit to a more Sefardi all white one wouldn't be 
such a big deal because no one is making an issue out of it.

In my community there is a back lash against the kitni-chumrot so I see
it changing, somewhat.

Ben

R' Micha Berger asked:
"In the mishkan, a mincha offering was brought.  other offerings too.  Some
: required flour and oil.  Where did they come from? "

I just saw a Tosafos in Menachos 45b that discusses the question of flour
in the midbar. Tosafos quotes Rashi as saying that they did not make the
shtei halechem in the midbar because all they had was man (so they had no
flour). Tosafos disagrees and says that they bought flour from merchants
(based on the Gemara Yoma 75b). I would assume that Tosafos would say the
same thing about oil. The Rambam in the Peirush Hamishnayos (Menachos 4:4)
agrees with Rashi that they had no flour in the midbar.

So to answer your question according to Rashi and the Rambam they had no
flour and therefore did not bring anything flour based. According to
Tpsafos they bought flour from merchants in the midbar.
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On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 5:59 PM, Akiva Miller wrote:
> I understand that one cannot use Egg Matza for the mitzva of Achilas
> Matza, but I'm not sure exactly why. I'm aware of two different reasons,
> and they seem mutually exclusive.
>
> 1) The Torah requires that this mitzva be done with "lechem oni"...

> 2) Matza must be something that could have become chometz, but was baked
> before chimutz could occur. According to those who hold that flour and pure
> mei peiros will not ever become chometz, "matza ashira" isn't really
> halachic matza at all.

If matzah is baked with mei peiros and a kol she-hu of water, it would not
be lechem oni but would be halachically matzah.

Josh

R' Akiva Miller asked:
"It seems to me that people are getting confused between kitniyos and
gebroks.

Let's talk for a moment about communities that did refrain from gebroks in
recent centuries. Does Rav Aviner think that they didn't use matza meal for
cake? Anyone who refrained from making such cake are the ones who refrained
from gebroks, right?

So what new problem has arisen with "farfel, bread sticks etc"? Whatever
arguments you have against them today existed 200 years ago also, and they
were rejected by communities that ate gebroks."

There is no question that this is a new problem, even 50 years ago no one
made things out of matzo meal or potato starch that looked almost exactly
like the equivalent chometz item. There has been an explosion of
"imitation" chometz products over the last 20 years that look and even
taste like chometz.

This is more a spirit of the law issue. One of the reasons given for not
eating kitniyos is that since kitniyos look like and/or can make things
that look like chometz we are afraid that people will confuse them with
chometz and come to eat chometz. This concern certainly applies much more
to these modern products. If I can get kosher l'pesach cereal that looks
exactly like chometz cereal there is certainly a risk of confusion. No one
is saying that these things are kitniyos, what they are saying that in the
spirit of kitniyos these should be prohibited.
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Let's begin with what we agree on: I think that every Shomer Mitzvos
understands the need for gezeros and minhagim, such as those that protect
people from accidentally using flour in a way that they mistakenly think is
acceptable on Pesach. The disagreements will be over how restrictive those
measures should be.

I wrote:
: So what new problem has arisen with "farfel, bread sticks etc"?
: Whatever arguments you have against them today existed 200
: years ago also, and they were rejected by communities that ate
: gebroks.

and R' Micha Berger responded:
> No, we didn't have factory kitchens making gebrochts bread sticks
> that seem exactly like real ones. (If not of your favorite brand.)
> This really is a recent development.

Are you suggesting that the frozen non-gebroks pancakes that I can buy in
the store today are a bigger problem than the matza meal pancakes that my
mother made at home?

I'm sorry, but I can't buy that. It is true that today's factory kitchens
allow an amazing variety of technologies and abilities, including products
that are almost indistinguishable from regular bread. But I maintain that
this does NOT translate to an increased chance that someone will mix flour
and water in their home kitchen, precisely because the factory and home are
so far apart - both geographically and sociologically.

If someone is enticed by the quality of a store-bought breadstick or pizza
slice, I cannot imagine that they would attempt to duplicate it at home
nowadays without a recipe. Seeing a breaded chicken cutlet at one's
neighbor's home *IS* something that you might duplicate in your own home,
and there is great danger there. But I just don't see that happening with
factory-made goods. Anyone who is awed by the quality will read the box to
figure out how they managed such a feat, and they will immediately see the
potato and tapioca listed. (But I am willing to listen to other arguments.)

My suspicion is that the anti-potato sentiments may have originated in the
non-gebroks sectors. Pesach pizza and pancakes are very new to them, and I
suppose I can understand their concern. But among those who have been
eating gebroks for generations, I just don't understand why these new
products bother them.

Akiva Miller

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R' Joshua Meisner wrote:
> If matzah is baked with mei peiros and a kol she-hu of water,
> it would not be lechem oni but would be halachically matzah.

That's true. Theoretically, if one would bake it fast enough, before it
becomes chometz, it would be real matza. But because of the mei peiros, it
isn't plain matza, but it is "rich" matza - matza ashira, and thus
disqualified from Mitzvas Achilas Matza.

But as far as I know, no one makes such matza, because (there is a fear
that) the combination of both water and mei peiros will allow the dough to
become chometz much faster than usual. That's not the case with the stuff
on the shelves that's labeled "Egg Matza" or "Matza Ashira" - This has no
water at all, and its dough can never become chometz.

If so, then it seems to me that the term "Matza Ashira" is a misnomer. It
isn't matza at all, because it was incapable of becoming chometz. A better
term for it might be "Matza-style squares" (which is the term that the
industry has chosen for the potato and tapioca stuff).

I suspect that at some point in history, some educator felt that the logic
of "the fruit juice makes it rich bread" was more easily accepted by the
masses, and the logic of "it can't be chometz and therefore it isn't matza"
was too difficult for them. And from that point onwards, it was the go-to
explanation, despite the technical shortcomings.

Akiva Miller


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I've been thinking (pun intended) about  staam daat" . (I have in mind
"whatever HKB"H wants me to have in mind without actually knowing what that
is [e.g., to be yotzeih the chazan's bracha]).
Firstly what is the source of the concept. Secondly, Is there an equivalent
theory in interpersonal issues? (e.g., I want you to take possession of
this object, whatever chazal says works, that's what I want to
think/occur). [relatrd to daat makneh and koneh issues]

KT
Joel Rich

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We all assume we can't have new gezerot. Is this really true?

At least according to some opinions bicycles and umbrellas are allowed on
shabbat.
According to RSZA electricity (without a heat or fire) is really allowed on
shabbat and certainly yomtov. Years ago many held that electricity was
allowed on yomtov.
Today we have things like fitbit watches which many feel are allowed on
shabbat.

Yet in practice the poskim prohibit all these things.
Other things are prohbited in davening because it is a slippery slope etc.

In essence these are all new gezerot perhaps without the nomenclature

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Thu, Apr 06, 2017 at 08:06:29AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Let's begin with what we agree on: I think that every Shomer Mitzvos
: understands the need for gezeros and minhagim, such as those that protect
: people from accidentally using flour in a way that they mistakenly think is
: acceptable on Pesach. The disagreements will be over how restrictive those
: measures should be.

Actually, you and I agree on that too. I think that minhagim should be
mimetically defined, by definition, and therefore it's only a very
overwhelming sevara that says the minhag is damaging that should change
a minhag.

And if we were talking about gezeiros, then we'd need a Sanhedrin or
universal consensus to create one. ("Universal consensus", eg RSZA
on electricity.) But we would also need that level authority to modify
or repeal one. So there too there is a high barrier to change.

So in either case, while I could appreciate R' Aviner's reasoning, I
don't know if I would be comfortable applying it lemaaseh.

:> No, we didn't have factory kitchens making gebrochts bread sticks
:> that seem exactly like real ones. (If not of your favorite brand.)
:> This really is a recent development.

: Are you suggesting that the frozen non-gebroks pancakes that I can buy in
: the store today are a bigger problem than the matza meal pancakes that my
: mother made at home?

While, really I'm suggesting that an environment where -- even a bagel
or a loaf of bread -- could be a gebrochts or potato starch replacement
poses bigger problems than we faced 50 years ago.

Because a person can pick up anything and mistake it for a KLP alternative.

Much like one of the reasons given for qitniyos.

The same was not true when the only KLP pancakes were rare and homemade.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
mi...@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. If I don't work on Chol Hamoed my paycheck will be much smaller. Is this a davar behaved (irreparable loss)? Am I permitted to go to work on Chol Hamoed?


A. A loss of profit is generally not considered a davar ha'avud. As such
one cannot automatically assume that it is permissible to work on Chol
Hamoed. Nonetheless there are situations where davar ha'avud would apply.
For example, if a person will use up vacation days by not working during
Chol Hamoed, and there is a preference to take vacation at a more
convenient time, this may be considered a davar ha'avud. (See Shmiras
Shabbos Kihilchoso, vol. 2, chapter 67, footnote 47.) Furthermore, if a
person is struggling financially, and not earning a salary on Chol Hamoed
would be stressful, this may be treated as a davar ha'avud. Nonetheless
these leniencies are not ideal, and Rav Belsky, zt"l stressed that it is
preferable to not work on Chol Hamoed.


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