Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 50

Mon, 10 Apr 2017

• 1. Re: Avoiding Kitniyos in Israel (Ben Waxman)
• 2. Re: Shabbas Hagadol (David and Esther Bannett)
• 3. Re: kitniyot (David and Esther Bannett)
• 4. Re: kitniyot (Ben Waxman)
• 5. Re: RSZA on kitniyot (Akiva Miller)
• 6. Re: mimetics [was:kitnoyot] ()
• 7. Re: kitniyot (Lisa Liel)
• 8. Re: kitniyot (Marty Bluke)
• 9. Re: Avoiding Kitniyos in Israel (Akiva Miller)
• 10. Stealing the Afikoman (Cantor Wolberg)
• 11. Re: Stealing the Afikoman (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Stealing the Afikoman (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: kitniyot (Akiva Miller)
• 14. Kitniyos - Why do today's Poskim argue with the Mishneh Berurah (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 15. order of the seder (Eli Turkel)
• 16. Matzah meal (Eli Turkel)

This is part of the backlash. People want the labels to read "contains 
kitniyot", not "for ochlei kitniyot only".

Ben

On 4/7/2017 7:28 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Qitniyos is batel berov.
>
> Ah, you may say: but they're intentionally mixing in the qitniyos, there
> is no bitul!

[RCD tried to sneak multiple topics into the same email. For the sake
of threading, I split it and fixed the subject lines.
-micha]

Without commenting on the meaning of Shabbat Hagadol, I'd like to 
comment on the "fact" that Shabbat  is feminine and one would have to 
say Shabbat Hag'dola.  The Rambam in Hilkhot Shabbat 30:2 says Shhabat 
Hagadol.  I then looked in the Bar Ilan Shu"t and found that there are a 
dozen other sources for a male Shabbat.

[End of part 1. Now, part 3. -mb]

And then R' Micha on the vayanuchu va, vo and vam in the tefila: There 
were three nuschaot. One said Shabbat and va, Another said yom haShabbat 
and vo and the third said Shabbatot and vam.


PKvS.

David Bannett

[Part 2, a mid-post detour. -mb]

And as long as I am writing, a comment on the next posting in the Digest 
48.  Matza meal is the coarse version and is used for making latkes and 
kneidlach.  Cake meal is the fine ground version for making cakes. Both 
were on the market and used by my mother in the US some 70- 80 years ago.

And R' Micha mentioned a week or so ago that R/Dr Bannet pointed out  
that in my youth, peanut oil had the most machmir heksher of all Pesach 
oils.  Three comments: It is true that chasidim used only peanut oil 
made by a Shomer mitzvot Jew. I am neither a R nor a Dr, and my family 
name ends with two t's.


PKvS.
David Bannett

If the issue was jealousy of sefardim, people would want to drop the 
minhag entirely. There is that, but only on the fringe.

These chumrot seem like a false imposition, something someone invented.  
You can only hear "when I was a kid, we ate X, Y, Z" or "I went to a 
shiur and the rav said X, Y, Z are muttar" so many times before asking 
yourself "so  why don't we eat X, Y, Z"?

And yes, intermarriage is a huge factor.

On 4/8/2017 12:48 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> I can this of two very different possibilities: One is negative, that
> there is some sort of jealousy to the sefardim, or taavah for the many
> products that are available. The other is positive, that this is
> simply a natural development of how minhagim change over the centuries
> when communities mix.

R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> from halichot shlomo volume on Pesach p89 (pe-tet)
> ...
> He brings that the CA prohibited potatos !! but that this psak
> was never accepted. because they can't be confused with wheat.
> He adds that PERHAPS there is a reason to prohibit potato flour
> (serach kitniyot - based on chiddishin of RSZA to Pesachim).
> Certainly, cakes made from matza flour should certainly be
> prohibited (ie even according to those that eat gebrochs) ...

To me, it seems contradictory to allow gebroks yet forbid matza meal
cake. Yet it certainly seems that this is how RSZA held. I think I'm
going to have to retract most of my recent posts. Or add least append
a big "tzorech iyun" to them.

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> Actually, you and I agree on that too. I think that minhagim  should be
> mimetically defined, by definition, ....  [--RMB]


WADR, while you're entitled, of course, to think this, the concept of  
mimetics does not exist in halakha, and cannot therefore be  determinative.

Lisa





>>>>>
 
"Shema beni mussar avicha, VE'AL TITOSH TORAS IMECHA."
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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On 4/8/2017 1:48 AM, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> R' Eli Turkel wrote:
>
> <<< I agree with others that in the DL community in EY there has been
> a backlash against kitniyot chumrot and large shiurim. >>>
>
> Is this only in the DL community? If so, can anyone suggest why this
> would be so?
I think it's because the DL community is the community that is (a) 
committed to the Torah and (b) not stuck in fear mode.

Lisa

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R' Akiva Miller asked why in the dati leumi community there is a backlash
against kitniyos?

I think there are a number of reasons for this:
1. Theological - The Dati Leumi community views the establishment of the
State of Israel as a significant theological event, the beginning of the
Geula. They view the state as having significance. Therefore, they view the
Jewish people as much more of an organic whole and want to eliminate things
that separate the Jewish people into groups. Kitniyos very much does that.
There is no question that whan Moshiach comes the division between Sefardim
and Ashkenazim basically will go away. The Sanhedrin willl pasken the
halacha and there will be no machlokes. The Charedi world on the other hand
believes that we are still fully in Galus and nothing has changed.
2. The Dati Leumi community isw much less segragated between sefardim and
Ashkenazim. There are no ashkenazi or sefardi yeshivas and there is quite a
bit of "intermarriage". If your daughter marries a Sefardi do you suddently
not go to her for Pesach because she eats kitniyos?
3. People realize the hypocrisy of not eating kitniyos while eating kosgher
l'pesach pretzels.
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R' Micha Berger wrote:

> Why can't one argue that as long as the qitniyos is a mi'ut of
> the cottage cheese, and as long as it's not against the mixer's
> own minhag or that of the main bulk of people for whom he is
> mixing, the food is permissible for Ashkenazim too?
>
> ... What if an Ashkenazi was doing the mixing on a product where
> most of the target customer base is Sepharadi?

I would like to focus on the words "target customer base". We have to
distinguish the manufacturer's customer base from the hashgacha's
customer base. The two might be identical for a small brand that
markets only to frum neighborhoods, but not for an industry giant like
Strauss.

We can presume that the manufacturer and their target customer base is
mostly not makpid about kitniyos. Therefore, the manufacturer is doing
nothing wrong by putting kitniyos into the product, and once they have
done so, it is acceptable even for Ashkenazim, exactly as RMB
suggests.

But the hashgacha cannot put their certification on it.

The target customer base of this hashgacha seems to be people who
*are* makpid on kitniyos. (If they're not the majority of the
hashgacha's clientele, they are at least a very significant minority.)
And as such, the hashgacha has accepted the responsibility to act in
place of their clientele at the factory. This turns it into a "bittul
lechatchila" situation, and the hashgacha cannot grant an official
okay to such products without an accompanying warning, which is
exactly what they seem to have done.

> (Now, add to that mei qitniyos, and whether corn should have
> been added to the minhag, the observation that it is primarily
> NOT made for Ashkenazi Jews, and ask the same thing about Coca
> Cola.)

Not just Coca Cola. Weren't we discussing chocolate bars a few weeks ago?

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I tend to agree with the negative aspect of stealing the Afikoman.
Very similarly, I feel the minhag to get so drunk on Purim so that 
you can?t distinguish between blessed be Mordecai and cursed be Haman
is a very bad minhag and more offensive than stealing the afikoman.
You are encouraging people to get drunk and that also has caused many
problems in recent times.

On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 02:42:40AM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: I tend to agree with the negative aspect of stealing the Afikoman.
: Very similarly, I feel the minhag to get so drunk on Purim so that 
: you can?t distinguish between blessed be Mordecai and cursed be Haman
: is a very bad minhag and more offensive than stealing the afikoman.

Yeah, I don't see how teaching kids to steal the afiqoman is going
to weaken their knowledge that it's wrong to steal. Should kids
playing baseball not steal home? Just because the rule of the game
is called "stealing"?

But there is backlash against the drunk-on-Purim minhag too.
The OU and RCA each put out something like
<https://www.ou.org/holidays/purim/purim_-_rabbi_weinreb2>
annually. Hatzola puts out warnings. There are black-n-white wearing
yeshivos that clamped down on their kids getting drunk when doing
their Purim fundraising.

And there has been backlash to the backlash, by people who value
minhag.

Really, the treatment of the two has been pretty parallel.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             How wonderful it is that
mi...@aishdas.org        nobody need wait a single moment
http://www.aishdas.org   before starting to improve the world.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Anne Frank Hy"d

On 09/04/17 09:02, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Yeah, I don't see how teaching kids to steal the afiqoman is going
> to weaken their knowledge that it's wrong to steal. Should kids
> playing baseball not steal home? Just because the rule of the game
> is called "stealing"?

That's a different sense of the word: "4. to move or convey stealthily". 
As in "with cat-like tread upon our prey we steal".

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

R' Marty Bluke wrote:

> There is no question that when Moshiach comes the division
> between Sefardim and Ashkenazim basically will go away. The
> Sanhedrin willl pasken the halacha and there will be no
> machlokes.

This is news to me. There is no machlokes here to be paskened.
Everyone agrees that the halacha allows even rice to Ashkenazim. It is
all minhag. Even if the Sanhendrin would want to, I don't know where
they'd get the authority to do away with minhagim.

On the other hand, if they *do* have the authority to do that, then
how can we know which way they'd pasken? Maybe they'd impose kitniyos
in the Sefardim!

> The Dati Leumi community is much less segregated between
> sefardim and Ashkenazim. There are no ashkenazi or sefardi
> yeshivas and there is quite a bit of "intermarriage". If your
> daughter marries a Sefardi do you suddently not go to her for
> Pesach because she eats kitniyos?

That depends on your posek. By my memory, many poskim, including among
the DL, hold that one can eat from the keilim, but to avoid actual
kitniyos. And many other shitos in both directions.

> People realize the hypocrisy of not eating kitniyos while
> eating kosher l'pesach pretzels.

I was arguing strenuously against this until a few hours ago, when I
was reminded that Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach held this way too.
Perhaps I have overdosed on inoculations of matza meal cake and matza
meal pancakes, and I cannot see myself ever sharing this view. But
having seen RSZA's words, I cannot claim that it is only the little
people who say this - it's the big guns too. And I would be indebted
to any listmembers who would quote other gedolim on this topic.

Akiva Miller
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Can anyone show some Halachic source
 that argues with the Mishneh Berurah
who Paskens that
Foods containing
LESS THAN 50% Kitniyos
that is at the same time not visually discernible
Although its taste is certainly discernible,
 is Muttar during Pesach?

Is a Rov permitted to refuse to identify a Kosher product as Kosher (or
worse, declare a product not Kosher) because of other considerations?

See this article
http://www.kosherveyosher.com/chocolate-pesach-lecithin-1001.html
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<<is there any clue as to how the seder was conducted when there was a
korban
pesach?>

See "leil haPesach be-taludum shel chachamim" (Hebrew) by David Henshkr who
has a detailed
discussion

-- 
Eli Turkel
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<<I have never seen shmura cake meal.  Has anyone? >>

In Israel it is readily available in many supermarkets

-- 
Eli Turkel
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