Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 53

Fri, 21 Apr 2017

• 1. Re: Toilet Paper on Chol haMoed (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: RSZA on kitniyot (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: RSZA on kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 4. Isru Chag (Cantor Wolberg)
• 5. Re: If You Are Choshesh for GeBrochts You MUST be Choshesh that Youir Matza is Chamets (Akiva Miller)
• 6. Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Allan Engel)
• 9. kitniyot (Eli Turkel)
• 10. RSZA on kiniyot (Eli Turkel)
• 11. Re: Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: kitniyot (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 14. Re: kitniyot (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: kitniyot (Micha Berger)

On 16/04/17 17:10, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>
> Actually, the heter is that the food tastes better when made closer to
> eating time. But if one is talking about food that would taste as good
> if made days ahead (including the logistical limitations of storage),
> one is actually supposed to be cooking it before YT.

But not before chol hamoed.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On 16/04/17 17:49, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> : He brings that the CA prohibited potatos !! but that this psak was never
> : accepted. because they can't be confused with wheat...
>
> But the CA himself says it's a minhag she'ein hataibur yachol laaemod
> bo. He gives it as a hava amina and rejects it for a different reason
> than the one given.

again, no he doesn't.  We just went through this last week.  He never 
proposed it, even as a hava amina, and never gives a reason against it. 
He merely reports, as a matter of fact and completely without comment 
for or against it, that he heard that in Germany they forbid potatoes 
because over there they make flour from them.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 06:44:54PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: On 16/04/17 17:49, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
: >: He brings that the CA prohibited potatos !! but that this psak was never
: >: accepted. because they can't be confused with wheat...

: >But the CA himself says it's a minhag she'ein hataibur yachol laaemod
: >bo. He gives it as a hava amina and rejects it for a different reason
: >than the one given.
: 
: again, no he doesn't.  We just went through this last week...

And given the relatice abilities of RSZA and you to read the
Chayei Adam, you're obviously mistaken.

: never proposed it, even as a hava amina...

He reports the existence of such a minhag, and recommends against
its adoption. Close enough.

You're setting yourself up as a baal pelugta of RSZA by splitting
hairs to crration a distinction without a difference? Really?

-Micha

The gematria for Isru Chag is 278, the same gematria for l'machar found in Bamidbar, Ch.11, vs.18.  
This is in the Sidra, Beha?a'lotcha, where God has Moshe establish a Sanhedrin because Moshe complained that he could not carry on alone.  

God says to Moshe: "To the people you shall say, 'Prepare yourselves for tomorrow and you shall eat meat..."  
 
There is an interesting tie here.  The day after a festival is the "morrow" and even though the holiday is over, we must always be preparing ourselves. 
(Also, in counting the omer, we are preparing ourselves for the climax of our faith in 50 days).
 
A good Isru chag to all.
ri

?By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail.?
Anonymous
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R' Meir G. Rabi explained his logic:

> if one suggests that
> there is a possibility that
> some flour
> within [but not on the surface of] the Matza
> which is protected from the heat of the oven
> and does not become baked
> [as once it is baked, flour can not become Chamets]
> then the Chashash that this flour
> might become Chamets if it becomes wet
> pales into insignificance
> and is completely eclipsed by the much greater risk
> that the middle part of the Matza
> which may not have been baked
> may actually be Chamets [Gamur]

I do not follow this logic. He is comparing two distinctly different
risks. For simplicity, I'd like to call one risk "insufficiently
kneaded" and the other one "insufficiently baked".

"Insufficiently kneaded" means that there might be some flour in the
middle of the matza that never got wet and is still plain raw flour,
and that if it gets wet it will become chometz. "Insufficiently baked"
means that there is some dough in the middle of the matza that did not
get baked, and it is already chometz. And RMGR feels that the second
of these is a "much greater risk".

I don't know where he gets the statistics to say that "insufficiently
kneaded" is a small risk (his words are "pales into insignificance"),
and that "insufficiently baked" is a "much greater risk".

Personally, my opinion is that *IF* one checks his matzos to be sure
that they are uniformly thin, *AND* checks to be sure that they have
none of the kefulos or other problems that halacha warns us about,
then he can be confident that no part of the matza was insufficiently
baked, and they are NOT chometz. Thus, there are steps that the
consumer can take to minimize the risk that his matzos were
insufficiently baked.

In contrast, I don't know of any way that the consumer can check the
matzos to verify that they were kneaded well enough; who knows if
there might be a few particles of flour that never got wet? I guess
the consumer has to rely on the manufacturer and hechsher to insure
that they are doing a good enough job of kneading the dough.

Anyway, my main point is that these two risks are distinct from each
other. I don't see any logical connection between them. From the way
he worded the subject line, it sounds like RMGR is making a "kal
vachomer", that if one is worried about one of the risks, then he must
certainly worry about the other one, but I don't see that. (In fact, I
can't even figure out which risk he feels leads to the other.)

Akiva Miller

I am moving this to Avodah.

>From: Ben Waxman via Areivim <arei...@lists.aishdas.org>
>To: Simon Montagu via Areivim <arei...@lists.aishdas.org>,      areivim
>         <arei...@aishdas.org>


>Why is this even an issue? Meaning, why is it such an issue that people
>with a different minhag are davening together*? Or is the issue that
>both sides feel that the other is doing an aveira**?
>
>*Sefardim and Ashkenazim wrap their teffilin differently. That factoid
>doesn't stop anyone from praying together.
>** Which brings up other issues.
>Ben

My understanding is that people who wear Tefillen during Cho Moed are 
not supposed to wear them in a minyan where the custom is that no one 
wears Tefillen.  I know that in a couple of shuls near me they are 
makpid that those who wear Tefillen and those who do not do wear them 
do not daven together until after the kedusha of shachris when 
Tefillen are taken off.  In the Kivasikin minyan that I normally 
daven with, those who were Tefillen are upstairs in what is normally 
the ladies section.  After Kedusha of Shachris,  those upstairs join 
those downstairs for a Hallel.

I have been told that in the Agudah in Baltimore those who wear 
Tefillen are on one side of the mechitza and those who don't are on 
the other side until after kedusha of shachris.

So,  apparently there is a problem with having a mix of Tefillen 
wearers and non-wearers during Chol Moed.

YL 
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On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 04:17:21PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: So,  apparently there is a problem with having a mix of Tefillen
: wearers and non-wearers during Chol Moed.

Lo sisgodedu.
The pasuq behind the whole notion of minhag hamaqom altogether.
Eg see MB 31 s"q 8.

The AhS OC 31:4 is okay with minyanim that are mixed between wearers
and non-wearers.

Nowadays, when the concept of minhag hamaqom is so weak and has so little
to do with our sence of belonging, I think the psychology is the opposite
as that assumed by those who apply lo sisgodedu. Having two minyanim
is more divided, and certainly if it ends up an argument about which part
of the minyan is behind the mechitzah.

Look how in Israel, many minyanim ignore the halakhos of having a
set nusach for the beis kenesses and just let each chazan use his own
minhag avos! And this enables a single minyan to function in spite of
diversity; a variety of Jews from different cultures able to daven
together!


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

(PS: "wfb" summarized a nice list of sources about whether they should
be worn from R Jacob Katz's article in Halakhah veQabbalah at
<https://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/31700/1570>.)

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 8th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Gevurah: When is holding back a
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           Chesed for another?

Why would tefillin be any different to the various different practises
about who does and doesn't wear a tallis? I have never heard of a
non-tallis-wearing post-bar-mitzva boy being banished behind the mechitza
at a yekkishe shul, or vice versa.
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<<With regards to visiting children R' AKiva Miler wrote:
"That depends on your posek. By my memory, many poskim, including among
the DL, hold that one can eat from the keilim, but to avoid actual
kitniyos. And many other shitos in both directions."

I was saying that facetiously. WADR you missed the forest for the trees. Of
course there are halachic solutions but it still makes for a very akward
situation for parents and children when parents visit a child and can't eat
all the food. >>

I didn't understand the question. My daughter married a sefardi and they
eat kitniyot. I was by them for seder and everything served was without
kiniyot. BTW I not aware of any shitah that there is a problem with
keilim used for kitniyot.

BTW if the future Sanhedrin gets rid of gezerot that no longer make sense I
vote for eliminating the second day of YT outside Israel. Given modern
communications, the whole world would know the time of kiddush
hachodesh instantaneously. RH might be a problem but there might be
technological answers to that also.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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<<: RSZA says the minhag is not to use cottonseed oil on Pesach (mimetic -
who
: determines this minhag?)

Well, if it's mimetic, you just watch what people do. And if so, RSZA's
statement is descriptive, not descriptive. As in: Lemaaseh, people are
nohagim not to use cottonseed oil on Pesach.
...
Sevara aside, minhag is whatever is the accepted practice. >>

The question is "whose minhag". RSZA is stating what he saw. In my area of
New York
everyone used cottenseed oil.

I recently saw a discussion of women saying kaddish. After a lengthy
discussion the author concludes
that the minhag is for women not to say kaddish. Well in almost all the
shuls in my town women do say kaddish.

I understand that even the Rama in SA in quoting minhag means Polish
(Krakow) minhag and many other existing minhagim in Russia, or Italy were
ignored.
Similar things in the Sefardi communities. There are several cases that ROY
opposes Morrocan customs as being against (sefardi) halacha but are
heatedly defended by Moroccan rabbis.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Look how in Israel, many minyanim ignore the halakhos of having a
set nusach for the beis kenesses and just let each chazan use his own
minhag avos! And this enables a single minyan to function in spite of
diversity; a variety of Jews from different cultures able to daven
together!
----------------------------------
Which gets to the heart of the matter - some see diversity of Minhag as
lchatchila (all the shvatim had their own Sanhedrin/practice) while others
see it as a result of galut.  IMHO this debate will continue ad biat hagoel
(may it be very soon)
KT
Joel Rich
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On 20/04/17 04:20, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
>
> BTW if the future Sanhedrin gets rid of gezerot that no longer make
> sense I vote for eliminating the second day of YT outside Israel. Given
> modern communications, the whole world would know the time of kiddush
> hachodesh instantaneously. RH might be a problem but there might be
> technological answers to that also.

The simplest method of getting word of kiddush hachodesh to the whole 
world on Shabbos/Yomtov is to have a goy send a tweet, which every 
Jewish house or shul could be set up beforehand to receive.  Amira 
lenochri is of course midrabbanan, so the Sanhedrin can authorise an 
exception.

But there's an even better solution: Kidush hachodesh (as opposed to 
notifying people about it) is  docheh Shabbos/Yomtov.  Eidim can be 
positioned in advance in places guaranteed to have no cloud cover and a 
good view of the moon (perhaps Ramon Crater?), and they can then drive 
to Yerushalayim, arriving in plenty of time to testify as soon as the 
beit din opens in the morning.   They could even be positioned on desert 
mountaintops in chu"l, and fly in.   Thus we could guarantee in advance 
that Elul will never again have a 30th day, and everyone could rely on 
that without actually being notified on the day.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 11:20:04AM +0300, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
: BTW if the future Sanhedrin gets rid of gezerot that no longer make sense I
: vote for eliminating the second day of YT outside Israel. Given modern
: communications, the whole world would know the time of kiddush
: hachodesh instantaneously....

I would like to suggest a different angle on YT Sheini.

It's not so much that Chazal were afraid of the same problems might
arise in bayis shelishi. After all, the language in the gemara isn't
the usual that we find with (eg) chadash on Nisan 16 or other taqanos
to avoid that kind of problem.

I would suggest that, like the format of birkhas hachodesh, the whole
taqanah was an excuse to keep alive the idea that qiddush hachodesh
ought to be al pi re'iyah.

It is that important to remember that the progression is "meqadesh
Yisrael vehazmanim", that people sanctify time, rather than the times
imposing themselves on people.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

On 21/04/17 12:38, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> I would like to suggest a different angle on YT Sheini.
>
> It's not so much that Chazal were afraid of the same problems might
> arise in bayis shelishi. After all, the language in the gemara isn't
> the usual that we find with (eg) chadash on Nisan 16 or other taqanos
> to avoid that kind of problem.

The language is "sometimes the kingdom will decree a decree"; therefore 
in an era when -- according to all opinions -- we will never again be 
subject to hostile kingdoms, it would seem no longer relevant.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 01:13:27PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: The language is "sometimes the kingdom will decree a decree";
: therefore in an era when -- according to all opinions -- we will
: never again be subject to hostile kingdoms, it would seem no longer
: relevant.

The language of the azhara to keep the minhag talks about zimnin degazru
hamalkhus gezeirah.

Rashi ad loc says that the said gezeira would be against studying Torah,
the community would lose the sod ha'ibbur and mess up their version of
the calculation.

But that's not the cause for keeping the minhag going. Because that
rationale has nothing to do with where the messengers could arrive on
time back when we needed them.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?


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