Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 54

Tue, 25 Apr 2017

• 1. Re: kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: kitniyot (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: kitniyot (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Re: kitniyot (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: kitniyot (Lisa Liel)
• 7. Re: kitniyot (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Chol Moed Minyan for Those Who Wear Tefillen ()
• 9. kitniyot (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Tazria (Cantor Wolberg)
• 11. Re: Kitniyot (Ben Bradley)

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 01:58:36PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
:> The language of the azhara to keep the minhag talks about zimnin degazru
:> hamalkhus gezeirah.

:> Rashi ad loc says that the said gezeira would be against studying Torah,
:> the community would lose the sod ha'ibbur and mess up their version of
:> the calculation.

:> But that's not the cause for keeping the minhag going.

: The letter explicitly says that *was* the reason.

You don't address my claim, just deny it.

What the gemara says the letter read was:
    Hizharu beminhag avoseikhem!
    Zimnin degazru hamalkhus gezeirah, ve'asi le'ilqalqulei.

This is a motive given for "hizharu". (The letter expliticly says
so.)

Yes, it could mean that it's the motive for the minhag, which is so
strong that that justifies not only keeping it going, but being warned
But, given that the potential oppression does not justify the format
of the minhag, this explanation must be for the caution alone.

:> Because that
:> rationale has nothing to do with where the messengers could arrive on
:> time back when we needed them.

: Those places never had a minhag of two days, so Chazal weren't going
: to institute one now.

Why not? 

If the problem is the unreliability of a computed calendar that is done
once for centuries ahead without a Sanhedrin, this is new to those in
Israel too!

I am suggesting the problem being solved is peopole forgetting that
qiddush hachodesh should be al pi re'iyah, and that's why practices
from the era of al pi re'iyah were preserved.

Then they add, that one shouldn't say it's not /that/ important, because
there is a pragmatic benefit as well.


(In any case, Chazal were instituting a derabbanan based on a pre-existing
minhag. I don't think you intended to imply that the "one" being instituted
now was a minhag.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

On 21/04/17 14:23, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> What the gemara says the letter read was:
>     Hizharu beminhag avoseikhem!
>     Zimnin degazru hamalkhus gezeirah, ve'asi le'ilqalqulei.
>
> This is a motive given for "hizharu". (The letter expliticly says
> so.)
>
> Yes, it could mean that it's the motive for the minhag, which is so
> strong that that justifies not only keeping it going, but being warned
> But, given that the potential oppression does not justify the format
> of the minhag, this explanation must be for the caution alone.

No, it's not the reason for the minhag in the first place; we know what 
that was, and it no longer applies. That's why they wrote to the 
Sanhedrin asking whether they should abandon it.   Hizharu means don't 
abandon it, keep it going anyway, and the reason for doing so is Zimnin 
degazru.


> : Those places never had a minhag of two days, so Chazal weren't going
> : to institute one now.
>
> Why not?

Because that would be an innovation and Zimnin degazru is not enough 
reason to do so. But it *is* enough reason to continue an already 
existing practise that has just become obsolete.  It takes a lot more to 
justify changing existing practise than it does to continue it.


> I am suggesting the problem being solved is peopole forgetting that
> qiddush hachodesh should be al pi re'iyah, and that's why practices
> from the era of al pi re'iyah were preserved.

But there's no hint of this, and the letter explicitly says otherwise.

> (In any case, Chazal were instituting a derabbanan based on a pre-existing
> minhag.

Yes, exactly.  It's a din derabanan that behaves *as if* it were a mere 
minhag, because that's what the rabbanan said it should do.


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 02:42:49PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: No, it's not the reason for the minhag in the first place; we know
: what that was, and it no longer applies. That's why they wrote to
: the Sanhedrin asking whether they should abandon it.   Hizharu means
: don't abandon it, keep it going anyway, and the reason for doing so
: is Zimnin degazru.

No, hizharu means "be careful", not "keep it going anyway".

This is NOT "kevar qiblu avoseikhem aleihem. Shene'emar 'Shemi beni
musar avikha, ve'al titosh toras imekha.'" (Pesachim 50b)

...
: >I am suggesting the problem being solved is peopole forgetting that
: >qiddush hachodesh should be al pi re'iyah, and that's why practices
: >from the era of al pi re'iyah were preserved.
: 
: But there's no hint of this, and the letter explicitly says otherwise.

Again, only once you mistranslate what it means lehazhir.

This "explicitly" is not only far from explicit, it's not even there!

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 10th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Gevurah: When does strict
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  judgment bring balance and harmony?

R' Eli Turkel wrote:

> BTW if the future Sanhedrin gets rid of gezerot that no longer
> make sense I vote for eliminating the second day of YT outside
> Israel. Given modern communications, the whole world would know
> the time of kiddush hachodesh instantaneously. RH might be a
> problem but there might be technological answers to that also.

Shavuos mochiach.

Even with *ancient* communications, the whole world knew the correct
date of Rosh Chodesh Nisan by the time Shavuos arrived. Nine weeks and
one day later, it is Shavuos.

Rosh Chodesh Iyar is irrelevant. Rosh Chodesh Sivan is irrelevant. If
you know Rosh Chodesh Nisan, then you know Shavuos. It's just
arithmetic.

Obviously, uncertainty about R"C Nisan is NOT the only reason to have
a second day of Shavuos. There must be other reasons too. If you can
discover all of them, and explain all of them, and explain how Shavuos
fits, *then* we can discuss "gezerot that no longer make sense".

Akiva Miller

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 7:38 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> I would suggest that, like the format of birkhas hachodesh, the whole
> taqanah was an excuse to keep alive the idea that qiddush hachodesh
> ought to be al pi re'iyah.

> It is that important to remember that the progression is "meqadesh
> Yisrael vehazmanim", that people sanctify time, rather than the times
> imposing themselves on people.

Even more so once a Sanhredin is reconstituted and there is qiddush
hachodesh
ougal pi re'iyah.there is no use for YT sheni

On 4/21/2017 7:38 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> I would suggest that, like the format of birkhas hachodesh, the whole
> taqanah was an excuse to keep alive the idea that qiddush hachodesh
> ought to be al pi re'iyah.

That's a real possibility.  In addition, I suggest that halakha is 
intended to be feasible without any technology.  Just imagine changing 
something this fundamental to rely on an electronic network that will 
inevitably be subject to attack by EMPs at some point.  I don't think it 
would be responsible.

Lisa

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 12:21:23AM +0300, Lisa Liel wrote:
: That's a real possibility.  In addition, I suggest that halakha is
: intended to be feasible without any technology.  Just imagine
: changing something this fundamental to rely on an electronic network
: that will inevitably be subject to attack by EMPs at some point.  I
: don't think it would be responsible.

While I get your basic point...

What EMPs? Even by Shemu'el's rather prosaic version of the messianic era,
ein bein olam hazeh liyamos hamoshiach ela shib'ud malkhius bilvad.

Gut Voch!
-Micha

[1] From: "Prof. Levine via Avodah"  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

>> My understanding is that people  who wear Tefillen during Cho Moed are 
not supposed to wear them in a minyan  where the custom is that no one 
wears Tefillen.  I know that in a  couple of shuls near me they are 
makpid that those who wear Tefillen and  those who do not do wear them 
do not daven together until after the kedusha  of shachris when 
Tefillen are taken off.  <<
YL 
 

[2]  From: Allan Engel via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

>>  Why would tefillin be any different to the various different  practises
about who does and doesn't wear a tallis? I have never heard of  a
non-tallis-wearing post-bar-mitzva boy being banished behind the  mechitza
at a yekkishe shul, or vice versa.  <<
 
 
>>>>
 
The difference between the tallis-or-not issue and the tefillin-or-not  
issue is that the former is in the realm of minhag while the latter is in the  
realm of halacha.  People are not so makpid about differing minhagim in the  
same shul, but differing piskei halacha in the same shul -- that is much 
more  serious. When you have some men wearing tefillin and others not wearing  
tefillin in the same minyan on chol hamoed, the presence of each subset  
implies that the members of the other subset are transgressing  halacha. This 
makes the whole set, with its mutually contradictory  halachic subsets, look 
bad from a Heavenly perspective, and potentially brings  down Heavenly 
judgment.
 
 

--Toby  Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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<<Just imagine changing something this fundamental to rely on an electronic
network that will inevitably be subject to attack by EMPs at some point.  I
don't think it would be responsible >>

Hard to imagine that all communication would be lost for 15 days. It
certainly is less likely than some problem with lighting fires between
mountains. Remember that originally the "entire" galut knew the correct
date of Pesach and Succot and so there was only one day of yomtov. Only
when there was a deliberate attempt to mislead was the system changed.

Also interesting is that there is no discussion of communities beyond
Bavel. What was done in Alexandria and Rome?  In any case even if locally
they kept 2 days it was widespread.
BTW I assume it took months to reach Rome. If there was a community in
Spain (sefarad) it was even longer.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Rabbi Zelig Pliskin, in his book ?Love Your Neighbor,? quotes a hilarious true story about Lashon Hora.
Someone asked a cerain woman if she wished to borrow a copy of ?Guard Your Tongue? to study the laws of lashon hora.
Her response was: ?I don?t need it. I never speak lashon hora. But my husband really needs it. He always speaks lashon hora."

We all know about lashon hora and how speaking ill of others is rather a
poor reflection of ourselves. However, taken to another level, it was the
S?fat Emes who 
said that it also can refer to having failed to speak lashon tov. This
brings to mind the poignant story of a man weeping uncontrollably at the
grave of his young wife.
When the rabbi tried to console him by saying how good he was to her, he replied: ?Oh, rabbi, how I loved her so much and once I almost told her.?  We have 
friends who take the time and effort to say nice things, and it would even
be nicer if more of us did that. You never know the ripple effect a good
word can have.
ri

After receiving another notice from school about bad behavior, a frustrated father sat to explain to his child the source
of each one of the gray hairs in his once black beard. ?This one is from the last time the principal called about your misbehavior.
This one is from the time you were mean to your sister. This one is from the time you broke our neighbor?s window,? etc., etc.
The father looked at his child for a response to his appeal for better
behavior, to which the child calmly replied: ?Oh, now it makes sense why
Zaide has such a white beard!?


Speech is the mirror of the soul  Publilius Syrus,  Latin Writer 85BCE
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