Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 118

Wed, 04 Oct 2017

• 1. Re: Writing on Yom Tov (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Not hadar is pasul (Akiva Miller)
• 3. Re: Not hadar is pasul (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: expensive etrog (Micha Berger)

On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 10:18:58PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: So... back to my question: To whatever extent "writing" in the "Book of
: Life" is a melacha, should it matter whether it is Shabbos or Yom Tov?

Before we take the Barditcher Rebbe's words too literally, let us
remember that wind routinely blows things to roll more than 4 amos
on a reshus harabbim, lightning ignites trees on Shabbos, people die
on Shabbos, etc...

IOW, first explain to me what a claim that the RBSO avoids melakhos
means altogether in light of the evidence, and then perhaps I could
participate in your intended conversation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

.
This thread may be running into a vocabulary problem. My understanding
is that "hadar" and "mehudar" mean two different things, and some
people tend to confuse the two.

"Hadar" refers to the absolute minimum requirements, without which the
minim are posul, and "mehudar" refers to things which Chazal consider
as making the minim even more beautiful. "Hadar" is required, and
"mehudar" is desirable. I was not able to find a source for this in my
seforim, but a post from R' Moshe Feldman in Avodah 10:9 (fifteen
years ago) seems to support it:

> The chiluk between psulei hadar (learned from the word "hadar")
> and the idea of buying a mehudar esrog--deriving from the din
> of zeh Keli v'anveihu (and applicable to other mitzvos as well)
> is discussed at length in Mikra'ei Kodesh (Succos vol 2) siman
> 26, esp. p. 119 (quote from Raavad) and pp. 122-123 in Harirei
> Kodesh. It would seem from his discussion that buying a mehudar
> esrog has no relationship to the word "hadar."

Of course, there are many differing views about what is in each
category, and this will vary by posek, by first day / not first day,
and by lechatchila / bdieved. I'm just explaining the definitions of
these easily-confused terms.

Akiva Miller

On 01/10/17 20:52, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> This thread may be running into a vocabulary problem. My understanding
> is that "hadar" and "mehudar" mean two different things, and some
> people tend to confuse the two.
> 
> "Hadar" refers to the absolute minimum requirements, without which the
> minim are posul, and "mehudar" refers to things which Chazal consider
> as making the minim even more beautiful. "Hadar" is required, and
> "mehudar" is desirable.

I don't think they're two very different things, they're just degrees of 
the same thing.  From "pri etz hadar" we learn that beauty is a base 
requirement, at least for the first day.  If it's not beautiful it's not 
kosher.  From "zeh keli ve'anvehu" we learn that we should want all 
mitzvos, including this one, to be as beautiful as we can make them, 
given our resources.

But baseline beauty itself requires more than the bare minimum that 
would otherwise apply; an esrog that is exactly as big as an egg fits 
the basic shiur, but the poskim think it obvious that to do the bare 
minimum is not beautiful, so they say hadar means it must be at least a 
bit bigger, if possible.  If it's not possible, then we make do with the 
bare shiur.

-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 02:05:15PM +0200, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
:  In OH 656 the Mechaber writes that if one is shopping for an etrog
: and sees two etrogim, one more mehudar than the other, you need to
: buy the mehudar (either it is mitzvah or possibly a chiyuv).
: However, this only applies if the mehudar etrog is no more than 33%
: more expensive. The language that the Mechaber uses in the "yesh
: omrim" is "ein meyakrim oto yoter m'shlish"....

There is a machloqes whether the shelish is milevar (Ran, arguing from
the Rif's silence, on Rif Sukkah 16a; Yam shel Shelomom #24), in which
case it's 50% -- 1/3 of the total 150%; or if the shelish is milegav
(Rosh 1:7), i.e. 1/3 in the Western sense, with a total of 4/3 the
original price.

The SA (OC 656:1) holds like the Rosh, lequla, but accoring to the BY,
he was doing so only on the ground of safeiq derabbanan lequla. Hiddur
mitzvah is derabbanan.

My first thought was -- what? It's a word in the pasuq WRT esrog -- "peri
eitz hadar"! That looks more like peshat than asmachta for a derabbanan!

But I realized something. Even though this din is being discussed WRT
esrog, the kelal of kehadeir bemitzvah ad shelish is not specific to 4
minim. As in Rashi (9b "behidur") invoking "ze keili ve'anveihu" to tell
you to buy the more expensive ST if it is up to shelish more pricey than
your other choice.

(So that according to Rashi, if you have only two choices -- mehudas
or very mehudar, and they differ by less than a shelish, you are to by
the very mehudar. Tosafos disagree. This tangent is discussed in the
Shitah Mequbetzer.)

Anyway, the SA calling milegav a qula implies that he sees up to 1/3
as a chiyuv derabbanan, and beyond could well be reshus. If it were
reshus up to a shelish and assur beyond that, then he'd be making lesser
expenditures assur -- a chumerah.

Personally, given the number of Jews who wouldn't spend the money on a 4
minim set, I like spending the 1/3 exactly, and using any other money I
wish to use to fulfill the mitzvah of 4 minim to subsidize someone else's.
(Looking at the archives, it seems I've tried marketing this idea most
years since 1999.) Of course, there are so many Jews who can't afford
yom tov, and I'd like to help with that.... In the end, the calculus of
how to triage that money can get SO difficult.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For those with faith there are no questions.
mi...@aishdas.org        For those who lack faith there are no answers.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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