Avodah Mailing List

Volume 35: Number 126

Mon, 30 Oct 2017

• 1. Re: offering a higher salary (elazar teitz)
• 2. Re: offering a higher salary (Zev Sero)
• 3. Long Lifespans in Bereishis (Marty Bluke)
• 4. Re: offering a higher salary (Ben Waxman)
• 5. Re: offering a higher salary (Lisa Liel)

>If I have a nochris who is willing to clean for me for $N, you have no
right to lure
>her away by offering more.  But if she is "re`acha" then aderaba you
>have a mitzvah to offer her a chance to improve her income, but before
>taking your offer she should offer me the chance to match it.

     Is it a mitzva to help improve a Jew's income, if it is at the expense
of another Jew (especially when it is not done with the intent of helping
the employee, but rather to help oneself)?

EMT
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On 26/10/17 12:58, elazar teitz via Avodah wrote:
>> If I have a nochris who is willing to clean for me for $N, you have no 
>> right to lure her away by offering more.? But if she is "re`acha" then
>> aderaba you have a mitzvah to offer her a chance to improve her income,
>> but before taking your offer she should offer me the chance to match it.

> Is it a mitzva to help improve a Jew's income, if it is at the 
> expense of another Jew (especially when it is not done with the intent 
> of helping the employee, but rather to help oneself)?

(1) You have the same mitzvah to love both of us, so whichever one you 
help is a mitzvah

(2) She is probably (though not definitely) in more need than I am

(3) If you're willing to pay more for her work then by definition that 
makes her work *worth* more, since the value of anything is defined as 
whatever it will fetch, so by making her the offer you're not hurting 
me, you're merely preventing me from (unbeknownst to either of us) 
getting an unwarranted benefit at her expense.  Basically our 
arrangement is ona'ah, we're both in error about the value of her 
labour, and you're in a position to prevent it, so shouldn't you do so?

(4) Your intent shouldn't matter.   Tzedakah doesn't depend at all on 
kavanah.  If someone is helped, it's a mitzvah even if you didn't mean 
it (cf shikcha), while if you meant to help someone and it didn't happen 
there's no mitzvah (cf Bava Basra 8b etc)


-- 
Zev Sero                May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,
z...@sero.name           be a brilliant year for us all

R' Chaim Manaster pointed out:
"But the basic issue is if the world is Charuv at 6000 years and yemos
Moshiach are before the olom is charuv, (while olom keminhago noheig) there
is not enough time left (we are now 5778) for a life span of 300 to 500
years let alone 1000 years."

The gemara (Sanhedrin 99) offers the following suggestions for how long the
Messianic period will last:

R' Eliezer - 40 years
R' Dosa - 400 years
Rebbi - 365 years
Avimi - 7000 years
R' Yehuda - the amount of time from creation until the Messiah comes
R' Nachman Bar Yitzchak - the amount of time from the flood until the
Messiah comes
Interestingly enough the Gemara earlier stated that the world will last
6000 years,
Sanhedrin 96B - Six thousand years were decreed upon the world: 2000 years
of emptiness (without Torah), 2000 years of Torah, and 2000 years for
Mashi'ach. This opinion of 6000 years is generally accepted, however,
opinions 4-6 above clearly disagree with this.
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After look a bit, I saw that the Aruch HaShulchan CM 237:3 paskens that 
this law only applies to a poor person. A poor person who finds 
something that he needs, you can't come along and offer more money for 
it. But if a rich person finds something that he wants (or employs 
someone) and this item is available, then the prohibition doesn't apply.

It would seem that anyone who can hire a maid does not qualify as poor 
and I am willing to bet that there is a good supply of people willing to 
work.

Ben

On 10/25/2017 7:48 PM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> I've seen posts claiming that it is forbidden to offer cleaners a 
> higher salary to work for you. While I can understand that it makes 
> sense to say that no one can break a specific agreement for a specific 
> day of work, why should it be forbidden to offer a higher salary to 
> someone who has a long term agreement?? A, this is the common practice 
> in the high tech world and I have never heard anyone say "Assur". It 
> would seem that there is general agreement that this halacha simply 
> doesn't apply today. 

On 10/30/2017 7:34 AM, Ben Waxman via Avodah wrote:
> After look a bit, I saw that the Aruch HaShulchan CM 237:3 paskens 
> that this law only applies to a poor person. A poor person who finds 
> something that he needs, you can't come along and offer more money for 
> it....
> It would seem that anyone who can hire a maid does not qualify as poor 
> and I am willing to bet that there is a good supply of people willing 
> to work.

Poor in halakha means not having what you're accustomed to have.  It
isn't an objective benchmark or a comparison to other people.

Lisa


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