Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 12

Wed, 24 Jan 2018

• 1. Re: Rav Breuer' Position on Chalav Yisroel (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: Rav Breuer' Position on Chalav Yisroel (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: The Purpose of Yahadus and Crime Statistics (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: Rav Breuer' Position on Chalav Yisroel (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Re: Chalav Yisrael - Donkey Milk - its for donkeys (Akiva Miller)
• 6. Chalav Yisrael - Donkey Milk - its for donkeys - Halachic sources (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 7. Re: Rav Breuer' Position on Chalav Yisroel (Ben Bradley)
• 8. Re: Chalav Yisrael - Donkey Milk - its for donkeys - Halachic sources (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Rav Breuer' Position on Chalav Yisroel (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Tzar Ba'alei Chaim (Micha Berger)
• 11. Kinapping (was: Tzar Ba'alei Chaim) (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Chalav Yisrael - Donkey Milk - its for donkeys (Ben Waxman)
• 13. Re: The Purpose of Yahadus and Crime Statistics (Micha Berger)

At 02:42 PM 1/23/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 01:24:36PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
>: Someone on an email list claimed that Rav Breuer held that drinking Chalav
>: Yisroel was a "good Chumra" and permitted the drinking of ordinary milk by
>: members of KAJ.
>...
>: In response:
>:> R. Breuer held that it was halacha to drink Cholov Yisroel - not a
>:> 'chumra.'
>:
>:> If one could not get cholov Yisroel - if on a trip, or it was not available
>:> in one's neighborhood, then one could rely on R. Moshe Feinstein's
>:> permitting non-cholov (stam).
>
>I think this snippet of the response is internally inconsistent.

I disagree.


>One doesn't have to drink milk, especially for a duration as short as a
>trip. So this isn't like a heter for a she'as hadechaq. If RYB really
>held that CY was iqar hadin, how could he allow violating that din for
>a trip?

You have ignored the part about Chalav Yisroel not being available in 
one's neighborhood.  This is not for a short time generally.


>As I said, his shitah was apparently that CY was a chumerah. Albeit one
>very worth keeping. Which has not stopped being consistent with this now
>thrice-cited story:

You are disregarding the email response I received. Rav Breuer held 
keeping Chalav Yisroel was a halacha,  not a chumra, as the response says.

In light of this I think that you have to modify what you wrote in 
your article on Aspaqlaria regarding Rav Breuer's position on 
drinking only Chalav Yisroel if it is available.

Also,  apparently your Passaic sources about his position are in error.

YL
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On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 05:46:19PM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
: >One doesn't have to drink milk, especially for a duration as short as a
: >trip. So this isn't like a heter for a she'as hadechaq. If RYB really
: >held that CY was iqar hadin, how could he allow violating that din for
: >a trip?
: 
: You have ignored the part about Chalav Yisroel not being available
: in one's neighborhood.  This is not for a short time generally.

If chalav yisrael is iqar hadin, then we're talking about something is
treif derabbanan, like chicken parmesan. You don't bend it even if it's
not available where you live. But in any case, you simply walked away
from the case in hand.

RYB didn't limit his license to rely on R' Moshe to cases where you can't
get any where you live. He said even on a trip one may do so. It's that
case, the trip, that would never have been permitted had he held that
there was a real issur, but some shitah he didn't buy into permitted.

Another litmus test.... If you accidentally mixed poultry and meat in
your own pot, you would kasher it. Does you source recall anyone in KAJ
being told they have to kasher their posts after making a mistake with
chalav hacompanies?

BTW, Chabad does. (Although the dishes of someone who does consume
chalav hacompanies are different, but that's a whole different topic.)

: >As I said, his shitah was apparently that CY was a chumerah. Albeit one
: >very worth keeping. Which has not stopped being consistent with this now
: >thrice-cited story:

: You are disregarding the email response I received. Rav Breuer held
: keeping Chalav Yisroel was a halacha,  not a chumra, as the response
: says.

This person says so. But since I do not know whether this person heard
as much first-hand or read it from RYBs' writings, I am free to believe
he is mistaken. Yes, I am disragarding the conclusion drawn in an email
that opens by saying RYB held it was assur and then describes RYB as
ruling in a way inconsistent with that opening.

: In light of this I think that you have to modify what you wrote in
: your article on Aspaqlaria regarding Rav Breuer's position on
: drinking only Chalav Yisroel if it is available.

You're just insisting that your anynymous source is more authoritative
than mine, despite the email you showed us seeming to me to undermine
its own thesis.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht

.

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> How would you justify assuming the payoff is so much smaller
> than the demanded investment? If the difference between those
> who follow sheqer -- the crime or volunteerism stats in a
> different religious commuunity of a similar income profile
> -- aren't visibly worse, without needing formal pollsters,
> than following the Emes, what exactly is Yahadus about?

In an earlier draft of this post, I wrote that if religious Jews are
so much more ethical than others, and that this effect were so visible
that it would be obvious even without formal statisticians, it would
pose serious problems for Bechira Chofshis. And perhaps, for this
simple reason, the effort is doomed to failure, since Hashem will do
what is necessary to balance things out.

But then I realized, as RMB put it:

> The Torah describes itself to be a means of producing better people.

I could ask him for sources, but why bother? Even if the sources in
Torah Sheb'ksav could be debated, the sources in Chazal are
overwhelming. Can anyone count the stories in which a person was seen
being unethical, and an investigation revealed that he wasn't Jewish
after all? The extent to which such stories are literal or metaphor is
totally irrelevant; the point is that there *IS* an expectation for
the typical Jew to be noticably better in these areas.

So instead, I'll try a different approach...

> ... ... what exactly is Yahadus about?

I can't speak for anyone else, but for *me*, Torah is about obedience
to the Creator. Not because of any promise of reward or threat of
punishment, but because of (in no particular order) gratitude for my
life and all that came with it, and because (as one cynic once put it)
"when all else fails, read the instructions".

If we would simply put in the time and effort to follow the User's
Manual (a/k/a Torah), this universe would run as it ought to. That
would include everything that Rabbi Berger expects from a group of
ethical Torahdik people. I do agree with him, that if enough of us
were doing Torah the way we ought to be doing it, the effects WOULD be
visible, even without statisticians.

The difference is of cause and effect. When I see a preacher exhorting
people to join his religion in order to get a good afterlife, I am not
impressed, because I see it as selfish and non-altruistic. When
someone wants us to be frum to make a Kiddush Hashem, I see it as a
little better, but it is only a matter of degree. Granted that it
isn't selfish, but it's not Lishmah either. If Shmiras Hamitzvos is a
tool to a more socially equitable world, is that "what Yahadus is
about"?

Maybe I'm being too demanding, and too simplistic. So let me be clear:
If a person is careful with his Bein Adam L'chaveiro because he knows
that's Hashem's plan to avoid strife and make a better world, that is
a truly great thing. My only point is that if the project doesn't seem
to be working, he must keep in mind that the better world would only
have been a SIDE BENEFIT to his mitzvos. It is not the ikar reason for
doing them.

Akiva Miller

.
I do not know what Rav Breuer held regarding plain milk, but I do know
this: In the 1970's (and onward) both Haolam and Migdal cheese were
under KAJ hashgacha, and although Haolam was chalov yisrael, Migdal
was not.

(Haolam is still under KAJ, but Migdal is currently under the OU. I do
not know when or why it changed.)

Akiva Miller

.
R' Meir G. Rabi wrote:

> Chazal made their food decrees in order to build barriers to
> socially isolate us Yidden from our Gyshe neighbours. The Kashrus
> aspects were in the main, arguments to persuade us to accept them.
>
> So it is more accurate to say that Chazal used the ikky value of
> possibile adulteration with pig milk, to successfully promulgate
> Chalav Yisrael and ensure it gained acceptance.

Do you have any evidence for this?

It seems to me that the evidence is exactly the reverse: Chazal were
quite clear that the reasoning behind Bishul Akum and Pas Akum (and a
few other halachos, but those will suffice for now) were to "socially
isolate" us. They saw no need for additional persuasion to ensure
acceptance.

In fact, a few days ago, I posted about the fact that Bishul Akum and
Pas Akum specifically allow us to enter territory that is somewhat
dangerous from an ingredient and keilim perspective. Just to give one
tiny example: If Bishul Akum was instituted for kashrus reasons, it is
incredible that Chazal allowed us to merely start the fire [or, for
you sefardim, to place the pot on the fire] and then walk away. They
would have required the Jew to remain on-site for the remainder of the
cooking -- surely to prevent treif ingredients, but at least to insure
that the fire didn't go out and get relit!!! But NO, they made one
tiny requirement to insure a mashehu of social isolation, and
specifically allowed us to rely on our own common sense for the
kashrus aspects.

If Chalav Akum and Gevinas Akum were for social isolation, don't you
think they would have said so?

Akiva Miller

 I apologise for not providing sources for my earlier post

RaMBaM MAssuros
after ruling that foods produced by non-K animal species or Tereifah K
species, are not K, Min HaTorah
3:12
 - milk from non-K species does not congeal [produce cheese]
and if a mixture of milk from K and non-K animals is used to make cheese
the curds form exclusively from the Kosher milk
all the non-K milk drains off with the whey
3:13
 - therefore [Yitten HaDin=it makes sense? It seems the RaMBaM uses this
expression but once in MTorah] *all* milk in the possession of a gy is
prohibited as he may have adulterated it with non-K milk
however the gys cheese is permitted since non-K milk will not produce cheese

It is clear this gys cheese is Kosher in spite of being made with animal
rennet
as the gy has not contacted the OU to get rennet with a Hechsher.
nor has he employed a Mashgiach supervisor to ensure and verify he has not
used non-K rennet
and yet it is Kosher LeMeHadRin.

It is astonishing to observe the contortions of those who feel challenged by
these simple truths.

So there we have it - Chazal did-not/could-not include in the Ch Yisrael
decree a ban on cheese manufactured by the gy dairy farmer - because
everyone knows that even if the gy uses a mixture of K and non-K milks, the
cheese making process filters out all the non-K milk.

In other words there is no need and there was therefore no decree ever made
that required cheese be made from ChYisrael. The Halacha has not changed,
cheese just like butter and yoghurt [RaMBaM MAssuros 3:15] need not be made
from ChYisrael.

Accordingly, until the cheese decree was enacted, we would pop over to
Xtopher to monitor our pint of milk and then, on the way out, we would
purchase a pound of his cheese.
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R' YL's contact said:
>> R. Breuer held that it was halacha to drink Cholov Yisroel - not a
>> 'chumra.'

>> If one could not get cholov Yisroel - if on a trip, or it was not available
>> in one's neighborhood, then one could rely on R. Moshe Feinstein's
>> permitting non-cholov (stam).

R' MB replied:
> I think this snippet of the response is internally inconsistent.
> One doesn't have to drink milk, especially for a duration as short as a
> trip. So this isn't like a heter for a she'as hadechaq. If RYB really
> held that CY was iqar hadin, how could he allow violating that din for
> a trip?
> As I said, his shitah was apparently that CY was a chumerah. Albeit one
> very worth keeping. Which has not stopped being consistent with this now
> thrice-cited story:"

I dont see any inconsistency at all. The paradigm of ikar
hadin\chumra\kula is more of a stereotype than a reality. For R. Breuer
to hold that CY is required by halacha, rather than a chumra, would
not mandate a she'as hadechak situation to justify drinking chalav
stam if he held that there was sufficient weight behind the meikel
opinion. Because then it wouldn't be a technical kula requring snifim
k'hakeil, classic she'as hadechak etc, it would just be a more meikel
opinion which could be held with in minimally non-ideal circumstances.
If he didn't hold that CY was a halacha, rather a chumra b'alma, why
would he go to all that trouble to obtain CY for the community? There
were surely more pressing issues. The anonymous R Breuer expert seems
on the mark given the evidence. BW

Ben

On 24/01/18 03:33, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
>  ?- therefore [Yitten HaDin=it makes sense? It seems the RaMBaM uses 
> this expression but once in MTorah] *all* milk in the possession of a gy 
> is prohibited as he may have adulterated it with non-K milk
> however the gys cheese is permitted since non-K milk will not produce cheese
> 
> It is clear this gys cheese is Kosher in spite of being made with animal 
> rennet  as the gy has not contacted the OU to get rennet with a Hechsher.
> nor has he employed a Mashgiach supervisor to ensure and verify he has 
> not used non-K rennet

No, it is not.  How do you know he used animal rennet, and if he did how 
do you know he didn't use it from a geshochtene animal?  That's why it's 
not assur min haTorah, but the chachamim forbade it, regardless of what 
sort of rennet he used.


> So there we have it - Chazal did-not/could-not include in the Ch
> Yisrael decree a ban on cheese manufactured by the gy dairy farmer -
> because everyone knows that even if the gy uses a mixture of K and non-K
> milks, the cheese making process filters out all the non-K milk.

First, it doesnt' filter out all the non-K milk; there is still the 
leftover milk which remains on the surface and is forbidden. Second, if 
the milk was not produced specifically for cheese, you can't kasher it 
by making cheese out of it.  (Rama end of 115:1)


> In other words there is no need and there was therefore no decree
> ever made that required cheese be made from ChYisrael.

Not true at all.  Rama 115:2 explicitly requires that lechatchila 
cheese, *even when made by a Jew* must be made only with CY, and if it 
was not he permits it only bediavad.


> Accordingly, until the cheese decree was enacted, we would pop over 
> to Xtopher to monitor our pint of milk and then, on the way out, we
> would purchase a pound of his cheese.
What makes you think the gezera on milk came first?

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 02:57:54PM +0000, Ben Bradley wrote:
:        . Because then it wouldn't be a technical kula requring snifim
: k'hakeil, classic she'as hadechak etc, it would just be a more meikel
: opinion which could be held with in minimally non-ideal circumstances.

As in, I don't have any milk for my trip?

RYB's position is far short of requiring a she'as hadechaq. It is closer
to "try your hardest to have CY when available."

For that matter, I am wondering what a she'as hadechaq would be for
this case. If there is powdered milk, one could rely on R ZP Frank's
far narrower pesaq lehatir. For that matter, vegans get their calcium
without milk. Even a necessity like coffee could be consumed with soy
or almond milk....

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You are not a human being in search
mi...@aishdas.org        of a spiritual experience. You are a
http://www.aishdas.org   spiritual being immersed in a human
Fax: (270) 514-1507      experience. - Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 12:22:07PM +0000, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
: Asher on Devarim in Perek Ki Tavo, siman 51.
: 
: RAW there sees TBC as the quintessential example of "Ratzon HaShem"...
: and identifies two different paths by which the meforshim identify Ratzon
: HaShem, the first by learning it out from within halachot (such as
: unloading an animal or not muzzling an animal) which he brings, and the
: second from the narrative text of the Torah.
...
: When I have time, I will do a hunt to see if anybody else (perhaps more
: obscure) brings aiver min hachai as the source for TBC, but in the
: meantime, if anybody has a source for this, I would be interested to see it.

The whole enterprice of route 1, identifying Retzon H' from halakhah,
requires taking a non-legal approach to halakhah, so we're dropping
precision. I am not sure how that works, how one would decide which
details are defining as to the moral intent of the din, and which can
be generalized beyond.

For example AMhC includes an eiver removed while under sedation. Or
even if a non-Jew took the eiver off after shechitah but before the
animal stopped moving. (For Jews, once shechitah defines death, it's
not min hachai.)

And ZBC does not prohibit use of the final product. Whereas AmhC is
all about use of the final product, and says nothing about a ben Noach
making an eiver min hachai, nor for that matter getting hana'ah other
than akhilah.

Maybe it's only incidentally ZBC reducing, like shechitah?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You want to know how to paint a perfect
mi...@aishdas.org        painting?  It's easy.
http://www.aishdas.org   Make yourself perfect and then just paint
Fax: (270) 514-1507      naturally.              -Robert Pirsig

On Fri, Jan 19, 2018 at 12:22:07PM +0000, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
: But given that even in the machlokus between the Rambam and the Ramban on
: the extent of coverage of the shiva mitzvoth Bnei Noach, both extend them
: beyond the minimal scope as written (otherwise where does kidnapping
: fall?)...

My first thought was that it would fall under geneivah.

My second thought was that "lo signov" in the 10 diberos is the hasra'ah
for kidnapping, as the diberos only include dinei nefashos. AND, the 10
diberos are considered avos that include all 613 mitzvos. (R Saadia Gaon,
in his Azharos, goes through the exercise, but hebrewbooks.org's copy
of Qoveitz Maasei Yedei Geonim appears to be broken.) So maybe simple
theft falls under kidnapping!

My third thought was that "lo signov" in the 10 diberos is the hasra'ah
for kidnapping someone into the slave trade, as a person is only killed for
kidnapping if they then sell their victim.

Which leaves me either back at ground zero or at my "first thought".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Like a bird, man can reach undreamed-of
mi...@aishdas.org        heights as long as he works his wings.
http://www.aishdas.org   But if he relaxes them for but one minute,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      he plummets downward.   - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Point of order: A woman I knew who is a giyoret and had a farm in South 
Africa told me that there is no such thing as milking a pig. Google 
tells me that while it is possible it is very difficult.? Better to use 
camel milk in the example.

Ben
On 1/23/2018 3:00 AM, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> So it is more accurate to say that Chazal used the ikky value of 
> possibile adulteration with pig milk,

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 09:20:22PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: In an earlier draft of this post, I wrote that if religious Jews are
: so much more ethical than others, and that this effect were so visible
: that it would be obvious even without formal statisticians, it would
: pose serious problems for Bechira Chofshis...

Why? It's not miraculous. Nor would it creat a taavah to be ethical. Either
way, no need to dwell on your hava amina.

: But then I realized, as RMB put it:
:> The Torah describes itself to be a means of producing better people.

: I could ask him for sources, but why bother? Even if the sources in
: Torah Sheb'ksav could be debated, the sources in Chazal are
: overwhelming... the point is that there *IS* an expectation for
: the typical Jew to be noticably better in these areas.

I was making a stronger point when I asked:
:> ... ... what exactly is Yahadus about?
: 
: I can't speak for anyone else, but for *me*, Torah is about obedience
: to the Creator...

As an end in itself? Or

: If we would simply put in the time and effort to follow the User's
: Manual (a/k/a Torah), this universe would run as it ought to. That
: would include everything that Rabbi Berger expects from a group of
: ethical Torahdik people. I do agree with him, that if enough of us
: were doing Torah the way we ought to be doing it, the effects WOULD be
: visible, even without statisticians.

So then we're in agreement. That sentence was my whole point.

: The difference is of cause and effect...         If Shmiras Hamitzvos is a
: tool to a more socially equitable world, is that "what Yahadus is
: about"?

I am saying yes.

I am working from ther position that the User Manual is about how to be
better people. Sheleimus. Notice that this isn't as specific as being
ethically better.

However, that has to be at least part of it, and I would suggest that in
Litvisher derakhim, is what Yahadus is about. With the Pulmus haMussar
being over whether we need to work at it consciously, or we should just
take care of learning and it will happen on its own.

To quote R' Yitzchaq Volozhiner's intro to his father's Nefesh haChaim,
this is the point of Yahadus according to the founder of Yeshivish (and
an ancestor of Mussar):
    He regularly rebuked me, because he saw that I did not participate
    in the pain of others. And these were his constant words to me,
    "This is the entire person: One is not created for oneself, but to
    benefit others to the full extent of one's potential."

Along similar lines, someone as anti-Mussar and as intellectually
oriented as R' Chaim Brisker wanted the words "Rav Chessed" as the
only compliment on his matzaivah.

And course, I have to quote R' Shimon Shkop:

   BLESSED SHALL BE the Creator, and exalted shall be the Maker, Who
   created us in His "Image" and in the likeness of His "Structure",
   and planted eternal life within us, so that our greatest desire should
   be to do good to others, to individuals and to the masses, now and in
   the future, in imitation of the Creator (as it were). For everything
   He created and formed was according to His Will (may it be blessed),
   [that is] only to be good to the creations. So too His Will is that
   we walk in His ways. As it says "and you shall walk in His Ways" --
   that we, the select of what He made -- should constantly hold as our
   purpose to sanctify our physical and spiritual powers for the good
   of the many, according to our abilities.

(There is a much longer argument for it in my manuscript, when I write
about this first part of the haqdamah to Shaarei Yosher.)

So, where I come from, all of Yahadus is about being more ehrlach.

And this is merely taking Hillel's "de'alakh sani", R' Aqiva's or Ben
Azzai's opinions of the Torah's "kelal gadol" at face value.

I realize that other derakhim might object to turning bein adam laMaqom
into a means of better accomplishing bein adam lachaveiro. (For example,
even within Mussar, R' Wolbe's Olam haYedidus makes BALM, BALC and bein
adam le'atzmo are three equal centers of value.) For that matter, not
every rishon does take those gemaros at face value. 70 panim laTorah.

: Maybe I'm being too demanding, and too simplistic. So let me be clear:
: If a person is careful with his Bein Adam L'chaveiro because he knows
: that's Hashem's plan to avoid strife and make a better world, that is
: a truly great thing. My only point is that if the project doesn't seem
: to be working, he must keep in mind that the better world would only
: have been a SIDE BENEFIT to his mitzvos. It is not the ikar reason for
: doing them.

And I disagree, claiming it's the primary point of those mitzvos, the
ikar reason why Hashem suggested these actions and not some other set
of commands.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Worrying is like a rocking chair:
mi...@aishdas.org        it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org   but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507


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