Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 19

Fri, 09 Feb 2018

• 1. Re: Chalav Yisrael: Required or recommended (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Shehcheyanu (Purim torah) (Zev Sero)
• 3. All food decrees driven by social isolation policy (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 4. Mabul and Dinosaurs from R Shlomo Miller shlitah (M Cohen)
• 5. Can one bake fish and meat in an oven at the same time? (Professor L. Levine)
• 6. Teaching torah to Women (Professor L. Levine)
• 7. mixing nusach hatfila (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Defending Traditional Practices (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: mixing nusach hatfila (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: mixing nusach hatfila (Ben Waxman)

On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 03:21:06PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: As I understand it, eggs have a great deal in common with milk: Eggs
: are kosher if and only if the source animal was kosher, and this is
: impossible to determine simply by looking at it...

Well, actually, Chullin 64a and YD 86:1 give simanim for eggs. If it
is round on both ends, pointy on both ends, or the white doesn't fully
surround the yolk, the egg is from a non-kosher species. If it is round
on one end, pointy on the other, and the white fully surrounds the yolk,
bring the egg to someone who hunts birds/eggs and he can recognize
the breed.

An advantage to working with a solid rather than a liquid.

:                                                  And yet, I never hear
: of anyone nowadays who insists on a mashgiach to certify that his eggs
: are from a kosher bird.

Because we recognize chicken eggs, and would indeed ask a rav if you
opened a carton and found something abnormal?

: I'm just guessing, but perhaps the gezera on milk was never on "milk"
: to begin with. Maybe it was a general law about foods where the
: kashrus problems had risen to a certain level...

Except it never gets phrased that way. R ZP Frank was so sure it was
specifically milk that he rules milk *powder* was never included!

In any case, it's hard to know which risks get covered with a geziera
and which not. It seems that some gezeiros deal with things far less
likely than other cases that aren't addressed.

I proposed the guess that it's historical accident. A mistake that
happened to get frequently made got a gezeira. And therefore there
is no way to reverse engineer a rule. But it's a guess made out
of whole cloth.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Apropos of our recent discussion of shehecheyanu, last week at the 
grocery store I saw the first homentashen of the season, and wondered 
out loud whether one should say shehecheyanu at the sight.  Of course 
the answer I expected, if any, was that in principle one should, but it 
will be included in the shehecheyanu we'll say on the megillah.  However 
someone standing by came up with a better answer: as the label proudly 
proclaims, the homentashen are yoshon, and therefore not shehecheyanu :-)


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

The Gemara AZ 35, Rashi explains - SheLaKos, food cooked even in and with
clean utensils, they are ALL prohibited due to Chasnuss.

Bartenura also expresses the same, they are ALL prohibited due to Chasnuss.

See also Tosafos Yom Tov.

AZ 36, oil was prohibited even though NTLifGam is permitted. See Kovets
Teshuvos Reb  Y Sh Elyashiv Vol 3:115, that Shemuel really was motivated
because of Chasnuss, but this would not have been convincing by itself (as
is the case with wine) so they needed to reinforce the argument to make it
persuasive, with the consideration (by scaring people) that it is made in
and with non Kosher utensils.
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(btw, if anyone wants a copy of all of the RSMiller Q&As, contact me offline
at mco...@touchlogic.com. Mc)  

<http://www.frumtoronto.com/Blogger.asp?BlogCategoryID=98&;ShowEntryID=17156>

# 1612 The Neighborhood Good Flood    

Q. My son asked me how the animals which appear to be indigenous to
Australia only (for example), arrived there after the flood? Were they
there before the flood? Were they destroyed by the flood? Were there
kangaroos on the tayva?

A. Whether all animals worldwide died during the Mabul may be open to
discussion. Fish were not included in the decree of destruction by the
Mabul as Rashi (7: 21) quotes from the Talmud, (Sanhedrin 108a)

Horav Shlomo Miller Shlit'a suggested that maybe animals in lands
uninhabited by humans did not perish.

Another possibility is that most lands including Australia, were then
joined as one single land mass. Maharitz Chiyois (Nidah 23a) teaches
that the Mabul caused great geologic disturbances that created mountains
and valleys where previously there were none. Bereishis Rabbah (28:3),
Ramban (8:11) and others mention that the very foundations of the planet
were affected during the flood.

Rabbi A. Bartfeld as revised by Horav Shlomo Miller Shlita
Posted 2/5/2018 12:23 PM

The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis.  YL


Q. Can one bake fish and meat in an oven at the same time?


A. The Gemara in Pesachim (76b) cites an argument whether a dry kosher item
baked in an oven together with a dry non-kosher food is prohibited, even if
there was no physical contact between the two. Do we say, raicha milsa,
aroma is significant, or raicha lav milsa, aroma is not significant? The
Rashba writes that even the lenient opinion that holds aroma is not
significant, allows this is only bidieved, after the fact, if the baking
already took place, but lichatchia, before the fact, kosher and non-kosher
foods should not be baked simultaneously in an oven. The Shulchan Aruch (YD
108:1) rules like the lenient view, that raicha lav milsa, aroma is not
significant, bidieved, after the fact, but lichatchila, before the fact,
kosher and non-kosher foods should not be baked together.

What is the status of raicha, aroma, with respect to meat and fish? The
Rama writes (YD 116:2) that we treat meat and fish exactly like kosher and
non-kosher: Bedieved, after the fact, once the baking took place, the foods
can be consumed because aroma is insignificant, but lichatchila, before the
fact, fish and meat should not be baked together in one oven. On the other
hand, the Shach 116:1 quotes the Be'er Sheva who maintains that fish and
meat are treated more stringently since we are dealing with a situation of
sakana, danger. Aroma poses a danger even bedieved, and one may not eat
meat and fish that were baked together. Common practice is to follow the
lenient view of the Rama (See Aruch HaShulchan YD 116:10).

Our discussion relates to dry fish or meat. If the fish or meat contains
liquid, there is an issue of zeiya, steam, and there may be a concern even
bedieved if baked together.

It is noteworthy that if either the meat or fish are covered while they are baking, there is no problem of reicha, and this may be done lichatchila (YD 108:1).


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Please download the file at
http://www.thehalacha.com/wp-content/uploads/Vol14Issue3.pdf

YL


[The kof-K's "Ha;achically Speaking" v14i3, "Teaching Torah to Women". -micha]

Strange to me: In Shtiblach I've gotten used to the nusach being determined
by the Shatz. Since the psak I follow is R'Moshe, I sneak a peek at the
Shatz's siddur to determine what kedusha to say. I've gotten used to the
eidot hamizrach folks saying their own kaddish no matter what the shatz
does, but today I was really surprised. At mincha, the shatz was ashkenaz
but said the 13 middot! I asked him afterwards and he told me this was the
shul, minhag due to shalom bayit. [BTW - I'm told that R'OY held bnai eidot
hamizrach should say the 13 middot privately with trop at an ashkenazi
minyan.] Is anyone aware of halachic sources that deal with the question of
mixed nusach?
KT
Joel Rich

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Shut Beit Efraim (O"C 6) [R'Efram Zalman Margaliyot - 1762-1828) strongly
defends the Ashkenazy practice of not duchening except on the Shalosh
Regalim. If you are looking for a spirited defense of traditional
practices, even ones that we can't really easily explain how they are
supported by the halachic process( a traditional Avodah topic), this is a
good tshuva to read!
KT
Joel Rich

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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
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On Thu, Feb 08, 2018 at 03:04:20AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
:                                              Is anyone aware of halachic
: sources that deal with the question of mixed nusach?

The problem is that until recently, and particularly in Israel, the
context was where a shul with no consistent nusach would cause fighting
and the whole agudos-agudos issue meant requiring a single nusach as
the shul's minhag hamaqom. This social setting in which democratizing
the minyan's nusach adds to the unity is new. (And not true here in
the US.) So, I would look among recent and contemporary Israeli posqim,
not expecting to find it addressed elsewhere.

And it seems even in Israel, it doesn't always increase unity, as
is evienced by:
:                                                               At mincha,
: the shatz was ashkenaz but said the 13 middot! I asked him afterwards
: and he told me this was the shul, minhag due to shalom bayit.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
mi...@aishdas.org        how can he appreciate the worth of another?
http://www.aishdas.org             - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef

On 2/8/2018 5:04 AM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Is anyone aware of halachic sources that deal with the question of 
> mixed nusach?

I once read an on line source which said that Rav Ovadia was OK with a 
beit knesset not having a fixed nusach but he didn't like it when the 
nusach was mixed during any one tefilla or switching from Ashekenaz in 
Shacharit to something else for Mussaf.


[Email #2.]

> he told me this was the shul, minhag due to shalom bayit. [BTW -- I'm 
> told that R'OY held bnai eidot hamizrach should say the 13 middot 
> privately with trop at an ashkenazi minyan.] Is anyone aware of 
> halachic sources that deal with the question of mixed nusach?

BTW the Tzohar Rosh HaShanah/Yom Kippur minyanim mix the nusachim for 
the piyuttim. Where I go there are two shaliach tzibburs - one to say 
the Ashekanzi parts and one to say the Sefardi parts. So it isn't just 
shalom bayit but an attempt to have everyone feel at home.

Ben


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