Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 38

Mon, 09 Apr 2018

• 1. Isru Chag (Cantor Wolberg)
• 2. Re: Kneidlach - what the ShA HaRav actually says (Isaac Balbin)
• 3. The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Professor L. Levine)
• 4. Shemini (Cantor Wolberg)
• 5. Re: Kneidlach - what the ShA HaRav actually says (Ben Waxman)
• 6. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Prof. Levine)
• 10. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Prof. Levine)

The gematria for Isru Chag is 278, the same gematria for l'machar found in Bamidbar, Ch.11, vs.18.  
This is in the Sidra, Beha'alotch, where God has Moshe establish a Sanhedrin because Moshe complained that he could not carry on alone.  
God says to Moshe: "To the people you shall say, 'Prepare yourselves for tomorrow and you shall eat meat..."  
 
There is an interesting tie here.  The day after a festival is the "morrow" and even though the holiday is over, 
we must always be preparing ourselves.  As a matter of fact, in counting the omer, we are preparing ourselves 
for mattan Torah in 50 days.
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On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 16:46:31 +1000 "Rabbi Meir G. Rabi" <meir...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> So there we have it -- if you dont wish to eat Gebrochts because your
> parents etc did not -- then enjoy Pesach [if Pesach can be enjoyed w/o
> Kneidlach] but if you are concerned about Halacha -- then eat Kneidlach and
> enjoy Pesach

Is RMG Rabi's post on Gebrokts consonant with the comment of the Mishna
Brura. The Chafetz Chaim stated that even though one may have doubts as
to the Halachic imperative of being careful (yes, perhaps needlessly)
about Matza Shruya, nevertheless,

"one should not be MAZNIACH [translate as you will] those who have
this Chumra"

In particular, it seems to me that the practice of actually keeping
Shruya is very much in line with many other Chumras that people have.
Consider Garlic on Pesach, for example. I would posit that today the
chance of garlic inducing Chametz is akin to itinerant matza flour being
present on a baked Matza. Nonetheless, those who have this Chumra, keep
it. They keep it because of the Minhag to be Machmir on Pesach! That
Minhag, by its nature is concerned with the infinitessimal.
There are many other examples. The Belzer don't eat carrots because of
a Chametz incident. They were Machmir from then on. Lubavitchers has an
incident with sugar and were Machmir from then on to pre-cook it.

Halacha on Pesach does admit the concept of remote Chumras! Yes, for
those who look at things from a non Pesach purist halachic view, may
well scratch their heads. Nonetheless, the Chafets Chaim taught us that
we should not be Mazniach.

The idea that Pesach cannot be enjoyed without Kneidlach is fanciful,
and not directly born out by plain Halacha. The Halacha specifies
Meat and Wine as primary inputs from Gashmiyus food that give rise to
happiness. Yes, B'Sar Shlomim (not chicken) and wine (good enough for
Nisuch Hamizbeach?)

To state "if you are CONCERNED about Halacha... eat Kneidlach" is perhaps
a worse actualisation than "Mazniach" as it implies that such people
are acting in perhaps some antinomian-like chassidic voodoo practice. [
One can argue quite cogently, for example, that wearing a Gartel today
is also "not in line with the Halacha". (We wear underpants!) We do not,
however, dismiss such practices.

[On Shruya see also Gilyoney Hashas from Rav Yosef Engel Psachim 40b]]

The Ari z'l stated that he would never 'talk against' a minhag
yisrael/chumra on Pesach.

In summary, and I've felt that RMG Rabi, Halacha is not a pure science
which leads to a true/false conclusion for every question that is
investigated using the rules of the Halacha.

Admission: My father a'h had the Minhag from his family (likely via
Amshinover fealty) not to eat Gebrokts. This is Toras Imecha for me,
especially on Pesach, and whilst I know that in general this practice is
unique to families who follow the minhogim of the Talmidei HaBaal Shem,
and is most minor, I state quite openly that deciding NOT to follow a
family minhag/chumra on Pesach would be FAR more upsetting and disturbing
to me than not eating Kneidlach. I'm happy to wait for the last day,
and for the record, I am not a fan of them, despite my wife being a
superlative cook.

Postscript: Is anyone concerned about the Kulos in our day, where they
essentially dismiss the Maaris Ayin concern, and make pseudo bread and
pseudo bread products? The fashionable Pesach retreats and cruises are
quite good (I'm told) at serving up 'eggs on toast' in the morning, or a
"hot dog roll".


"It is only the anticipation of redemption that preserves Judaism in
Exile, while Judaism in the Land of Israel is the redemption itself."
Rabbi A.I. Hacohen Kook

The teaching or more correctly the lack of teaching of secular subjects in
Hassidic yeshivas has again come to the fore as a result of  the recent
actions of Simcha Felder.

From  https://goo.gl/Xu9ejv

"Using his leverage as the swing vote in the divided State Senate, Sen.
Simcha Felder appears to have strong-armed a provision into the budget that
significantly changes state oversight of yeshiva curricula, political
observers say. "


I have talked to some people who live in Willimsburg, and the picture they
paint of the level of secular education in Hassidic yeshivas is not a good
one.  One Satmar woman who lives in Williamsburg told me that her sons
received no secular education in the Satmar yeshiva they attended. For the
record NYS law requires that all children receive a secular education.


What indeed should our attitude towards the teaching and study of secular
studies be.  There was no bigger masmid than the Vilna Gaon who slept only
4 half hours in 24 and spent essentially all of the rest of his time
studying Torah. Yet he found it important to master many secular subjects. 
The following are selections from


http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/rabbinic_openness_leiman.pdf


R. Barukh Schick of Shklov (d. 1808):

When I visited Vilna in Tevet 5538 (1778] ... I heard from the holy lips of the Gaon
of Vilna that to the extent one is deficient in secular wisdom he will be deficient a
hundredfold in Torah study, for Torah and wisdom are bound up together. He compared
a person lacking in secular wisdom to a man suffering from constipation; his disposition
is affected to the point that he refuses all food. . . . He urged me to translate into
Hebrew as much secular wisdom as possible, so as to cause the nations to disgorge what
they have swallowed, making it available to all, thereby increasing knowledge among
the Jews. Thus, the nations will no longer be able to lord it over us-and bring about the
profaning of God's name-with their taunt: "Where is your wisdom?"

R. Abraham Simcha of Amtchislav (d. 1864):

I heard from my uncle R. I:Iayyim of Volozhin that the Gaon of Vilna told his son R.
Abraham that he craved for translations of secular wisdom into Hebrew, including a
translation of the Greek or Latin Josephus, 6 through which he could fathom the plain
sense of various rabbinic passages in the Talmud and Midrash.

The Gaon of Vilna's sons:

By the time the Gaon of Vilna was twelve years old, he mastered the seven branches of
secular wisdom .... 8 First he turned to mathematics ... then astronomy


R. Israel of Shklov (d. 1839):

I cannot refrain from repeating a true and astonishing story that I heard from the Gaon's
disciple R. Menachem Mendel. . . . 10 It took place when the Gaon of Vilna celebrated
the completion of his commentary on Song of Songs. . . . He raised his eyes toward
heaven and with great devotion began blessing and thanking God for endowing him
with the ability to comprehend the light of the entire Torah. This included its inner and
outer manifestations. He explained: All secular wisdom is essential for our holy Torah
and is included in it. He indicated that he had mastered all the branches of secular
wisdom, including algebra, trigonometry, geometry, and music. He especially praised
music, explaining that most of the Torah accents, the secrets of the Levitical songs, and
the secrets of the Tikkunei Zohar could not be comprehended without mastering
it. ... He explained the significance of the various secular disciplines, and noted that
he had mastered them all. Regarding the discipline of medicine, he stated that he had
mastered anatomy, but not pharmacology. Indeed, he had wanted to study
pharmacology with practicing physicians, but his father prevented him from
undertaking its study ,fearing that upon mastering it he would be forced to
curtail his Torah study whenever it would become necessary for him to save
a life. . . . He also stated that he had
mastered all of philosophy, but that he had derived only two matters of significance from
his study of it. . . . The rest of it, he said, should be discarded.

To me it seems that the only conclusion one can draw for this is that the study of secular studies is crucial for the learning of Torah.

YL



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9:1 "Vay'hi bayom hashemini..."  The Sages teach that the word "vay'hi" often indicates that trouble or grief is associated with the narrative (Megillah 10b). 
What trouble or grief could there have been on that joyous first day of Nissan?   It presages the tragic deaths of Aaron?s sons, Nadav and Avihu. 
Another explanation:
Even in the midst of our greatest rejoicing, a Jewish wedding, we pause for a moment to recall the destruction of the Temple and the fragility of life 
through the breaking of the glass. Here, too, we have such a happy occasion, but the "Vay'hi" is to remind us of our fallibility and the frailty of life. 

There are many commentaries on Aaron?s response when told of his sons' deaths: Vayidom Aharon, ?and Aaron was silent.? It is somewhat coincidental that 
the third syllable of vayidom sounds a little like the English word ?dumb.?
One of the literal meanings of the word ?dumb? is mute and unable to speak.
It seems to me that
Aaron?s silence was his inability to speak due to shock. Many people would
faint dead away if told of such news. So it really isn?t surprising that
his reaction was
one of a deafening silence.
 
When two egotists meet 
"It's an I for an I"
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Rabbis Ben Nun, Sherlo, and Rimon have come out strongly against the 
wheat substitutes and feel that they should be banned. In their opinion, 
the primary reason for the kitniyot minhag is to prevent mixing up the 
various grains. Eating these types of products will lead to the same 
confusion.

Ben

On 4/8/2018 6:15 AM, Isaac Balbin via Avodah wrote:
> Postscript: Is anyone concerned about the Kulos in our day, where they
> essentially dismiss the Maaris Ayin concern, and make pseudo bread and
> pseudo bread products? The fashionable Pesach retreats and cruises are
> quite good (I'm told) at serving up 'eggs on toast' in the morning, or a
> "hot dog roll".

On Sun, Apr 08, 2018 at 12:55:41PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: The teaching or more correctly the lack of teaching of secular subjects
: in Hassidic yeshivas has again come to the fore as a result of the recent
: actions of Simcha Felder.
: 
: From https://goo.gl/Xu9ejv

...
: What indeed should our attitude towards the teaching and study of secular
: studies be. There was no bigger masmid than the Vilna Gaon who slept
: only 4 half hours in 24 and spent essentially all of the rest of his time
: studying Torah. Yet he found it important to master many secular subjects.

And this would be the only thing such Chassidish chadorim disagree with
the Gra about? Why do any of these sources matter in this context?

You are again putting yourself in the position of arguing for one derekh
in favor of another by working within the givens of your favored derekh,
rather than the one you're critiquing.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 9th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Gevurah: When is strict justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            most appropriate?

At 10:29 AM 4/9/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>And this would be the only thing such Chassidish chadorim disagree with
>the Gra about? Why do any of these sources matter in this context?
>
>You are again putting yourself in the position of arguing for one derekh
>in favor of another by working within the givens of your favored derekh,
>rather than the one you're critiquing.

And what do you do with the GRA's statement

When I visited Vilna in Tevet 5538 (1778] ... I heard from the holy 
lips of the Gaon
of Vilna that to the extent one is deficient in secular wisdom he 
will be deficient a
hundredfold in Torah study, for Torah and wisdom are bound up 
together. He compared
a person lacking in secular wisdom to a man suffering from 
constipation; his disposition
is affected to the point that he refuses all food. .

simply ignore it?

This statement is a statement of fact, so how can anyone disagree 
with it? The GRA certainly knew what he was talking about.  A derech 
cannot  go against the facts.

Also from http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/rabbinic_openness_leiman.pdf

Friesenhausen's critique, however, was hardly confined to the left; 
he also had to
contend with the right:

I appeal especially to all those who fear God and tremble at His 
word, that they not heed
the false claims of those who plot against secular wisdom . . . , 
unaware that those
who make such claims testify against themselves, saying: "We are 
devoid of Torah, we
have chosen folly as our guide." For had the light of Torah ever 
shone upon them, they
would have known the teaching of R. Samuel bar Nachtmeni at Shabbat 75a and the
anecdotes about Rabban Gamaliel and R. Joshua at Horayot 10a. Also, 
they would have
been aware of the many talmudic discussions that can be understood 
only with the aid
of secular wisdom. Should you, however, meet a master of the Talmud 
who insists on
denigrating secular wisdom, know full well that he has never 
understood those talmudic
passages whose comprehension is dependent upon knowledge of secular 
wisdom. . . .
He is also unaware that he denigrates the great Jewish sages of the 
past and their wisdom,
as well. Worst of all are those guilty of duplicity. They speak 
arrogantly in public, either
to appease the fools and gain honor in their eyes, or out of envy of 
the truly wise,
disparaging those who appreciate secular wisdom, yet in their hearts 
they believe
otherwise.

See in the above link the Chasam Sofer's evaluation of Rabbi 
Friesenhausen.  He was indeed a talmud Chacham.

YL
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On Mon, Apr 09, 2018 at 10:54:47AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: And what do you do with the GRA's statement
....
: simply ignore it?

Yes, that's exactly what the Chassidim who run the mosedos in question
do with many of the Gra's statements. Why would it surprise anyone if
they ignore this as well?

As for me, as in your question, "what do you do", that's an entirely
different issue.

: This statement is a statement of fact, so how can anyone disagree
: with it? The GRA certainly knew what he was talking about.  A derech
: cannot  go against the facts.

It may be more productive to ask about
1- the veracity of the reports you are relying on
and
2- if so, how do they understand the facts.

Being surprised when Chassidim don't see the world the way the Gra did
isn't really useful or warranted.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 9th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Gevurah: When is strict justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            most appropriate?

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On Mon, Apr 09, 2018 at 02:28:06PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: One may ignore what the GRA said,  but that does not mean that it is 
: not true.  The only way for someone to intelligently disprove with 
: what the GRA said would be for him to study secular subjects and find 
: that his learning has not improved and is not missing things...

Unless one might argue that the study warps what one learned and one's
ability to judge the quality of one's learning.

Or any of a million other things someone who disagrees with the Gra might
suggest.

A few years back there was a storm, and my son's grade school rebbe ended
up losing a son to a downed power line. The friend who tried saving the
son died immediately. The boy lingered for about 2 weeks. We attended
the levayah.

The father was proud that his young son went to his Maker pure, unsullied
even by learning the alphabet. Alef-beis, yes, the child knew; but they
hadn't yet begun the English alphabet.

Not a sentiment I would share. In fact, hearing it from a rebbe who taught
my son in a MO school, I found it kind of startling.

But it's a perspective. And if it fosters accepting ol malkhus shamayim
and ol mitzvos, raising children who are "ohavei H', yir'sei E-lokim,
anshei emes, zera qodesh..." who am I to say it's not the right answer
for someone else?

:> It may be more productive to ask about
:> 1- the veracity of the reports you are relying on
:> and
:> 2- if so, how do they understand the facts.

: Rabbi Dr. Shnayer Leiman,  who wrote the article from which the 
: quotes come...

I meant in each point something different than what your responses
reflect. To spell out further:

1- The reports that lead you to believe the norm for secular education
in chassidishe chadorim today is actually as weak as you believe. Rather
than the likelihood that the more extreme stories are the ones more
often reported. They could all fully be true, and yet not reflect the
experiences of a statistically significant number of American students. Or
perhaps they do. I would want statistics, not anecdotes, before judging.

For example, I did not notice it any easier to teach Sukkah 7b-8a
"sukkah ha'asuyah kekivshan" and the diagonal of squares vs circles or
their areas to MO Jews who weren't themselves in STEM fields than to
American chareidim. And if things were so bad, how do so many end up
"in computers", if not in a job that requires as much post-HS education
as mine?

2- How do they understand those "facts" about needing limudei chol to
succeed in limudei chodesh. Which of the numerous possible responses I
refered to in response to the first snippet in this email they actually
believe.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 9th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        1 week and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Gevurah: When is strict justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            most appropriate?

At 04:30 PM 4/9/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Mon, Apr 09, 2018 at 02:28:06PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
>: One may ignore what the GRA said,  but that does not mean that it is
>: not true.  The only way for someone to intelligently disprove with
>: what the GRA said would be for him to study secular subjects and find
>: that his learning has not improved and is not missing things...
>
>Unless one might argue that the study warps what one learned and one's
>ability to judge the quality of one's learning.

Are you implying that the GRA's extensive secular education 
"warped"  is learning?   I hope not.

Rav Shimon Schwab never finished the 9th grade,  but he had extensive 
secular knowledge that he acquired on his own.  Are you implying that 
Rav Schwab's learning was "warped"  because of his extensive secular 
knowledge?  I hope not.

And they there is Rav Y. Soloveichik who had a Ph d in  philosophy 
which the GRA said was a waste of time to study.  Are you 
implying  that  his learning was "warped."

I could go on with others.

On the contrary,  according to the GRA one's learning is deficient if 
one does not have secular knowledge.
  YL
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