Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 47

Sun, 22 Apr 2018

• 1. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Micha Berger)
• 2. H' S'fatai Tiftach (Cantor Wolberg)
• 3. Re: H' S'fatai Tiftach (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: When Bittul Chometz precedes Mechiras Chometz (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Need For Secular Knowledge (Micha Berger)
• 6. [TorahMusings] The Best Charity (Micha Berger)
• 7. The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Joseph Kaplan)
• 8. Re: The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies (Micha Berger)
• 9. Some thoughts on the passing of a teacher and friend (Rich, Joel)
• 10. R?YBS-Feminist/Talit Story (Rich, Joel)
• 11. The Torah is Not Religion (Professor L. Levine)

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 11:04:09AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: I would like to continue to correct what you wrote in an earlier post.
: 
: From https://goo.gl/e4pm3b
: 
: "Revel consistently maintained that secular knowledge in Judaism was
...

Before the wave in question, but not the cause of the day school
explosion. I do not know why this is so hard of a point to get
across. Being around first but not starting a trend does not make
something the source of the eventual trend. Post hoc ergo propter hoc
is flawed reasoning.

In fact, he didn't run a day school. And for that matter TA wasn't fully
seperate from REITS. It wasn't a HS model that caught on anywhere.

The model of day school and HS that actually catches on across American
O through the middle of the 20th cent was the product of compromises
between R ("Mr") SF Mendolovitch and his parent body.

When TA evolved into MTA and BTA, it was because other schools have
already created different expectations of what a HS was. Being in the same
track as the eventual college degree, so that going from TA to any other
college but YC was more like a transfer, was not sellable. (Although it
did make AP courses moot; just take a college course in your 3rd year,
if you were ready to.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 19th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Tifferes: When does harmony promote
Fax: (270) 514-1507                         withdrawal and submission?

The question was asked why H' S'fatai Tiftach immediately
precedes the Amidah.

I gave the following response:

Soncino gives a very poignant explantion.
 
?O Lord, open Thou my lips; and my mouth
shall declare Thy praise.?
 
David?s lips had been sealed by wrongdoing,
because praise of God would then have been
blasphemy. If, then, God opened his lips and he 
was again enabled to offer Him praise, it was a
sign that he had been granted pardon.
 
What a profound thought before one of the most 
prominent and central prayers of our entire liturgy.
We are all sinners and hope for the same pardon that
King David was granted.
 
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On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 07:25:17AM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: The question was asked why H' S'fatai Tiftach immediately
: precedes the Amidah.

Technically, it is part of the Amidah.

That's why we say it between ge'ulah and tefillah in Shacharis and Maariv.
Unlike "Ki sheim H' eqra", which is only said before the Amidah of Minchah
and Mussaf, because there is no Birkhas Ge'ulah, and therefore no problem
of interruption.

This is particularly relevant to a Chazan, as Chazaras haShatz should begin
with "H' Sefasai Tiftach", not Birkhas Avos.

Tangent, since we're looking at what the pasuq is about.

Safah is at the edge. The word is not only used for a lip, but also
for the seashore (sefas hayam). The peh is what stands behind the
sefasayim.

So, when I say this pasuq, and when I have the time and yishuv hadaas
to think about what I am saying, my thoughts are about Hashem removing
the externalities that block me from expressing my real inner self.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 19th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Tifferes: When does harmony promote
Fax: (270) 514-1507                         withdrawal and submission?

On 19/04/18 10:45, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> .
> I? just realized another complication. After the rav sells my chometz, 
> then I don't own any chometz any more, and as RBW wrote, there is no 
> longer any need to say Bitul (on a d'Oraisa level).
> 
> But wait! There's more! It seems that at this point in the morning, I 
> MUST NOT burn the chometz that I have saved for the Biur, because it is 
> no longer mine to burn. It belongs to the non-Jew, and I must not 
> destroy it without his permission. Does the Shtar Mechira include this 
> permission?

It was obvious from your actions that you didn't include it in the mechira.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 07:56:42PM +0000, Jay F. Shachter via Avodah wrote:
: We need to have a secular education in order to come to a correct
: judgement about the credibility of the sages who preceded us.
:  ...
: `Ovadia MiBertinoro comments on the word "epitropos" on Bikkurim 1:5.
: He says that it is someone who acts as someone else's father although
: he is not the real father, and he derives it from "pater"...
:                              `Ovadia MiBertinoro got it wrong.

Are you arguing that we need to know secular knowledge to that we know
when Chazal, rishonim or acharonim based their post-facto explanations
are errors? What's the deep value of that? So that we question their
wisdom about things that have nothing to do with emunas chakhamim and
the fealty to the actual kelalei pesaq?

If you were arguing that we need to know what to pasqen about, not
post-facto rationalizations that are in error but opinions of the metzi'us
they are pasqening for... I agreed (and already posted) that a poseiq
from LOR on up can't pasqen without knowing such things. But the hamon
am?

Mind you, I believe in the value of secular knowledge in-and-of-itself.
Not just what you need to increase the likelihood of paying the bills.
But I just don't see this particular argument.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 19th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Hod sheb'Tifferes: When does harmony promote
Fax: (270) 514-1507                         withdrawal and submission?

People who both know my own proclivities and read this to the end
will understand why I just HAD to share this post by RGS.

From https://www.torahmusings.com/2018/04/the-best-charity/

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Torah Musings
The Best Charity

Apr 19, 18
by R. Gil Student

My friend, Rav Shlomo Einhorn, is once again attempting a superhuman feat
of Torah teaching. A little over two years ago, he taught Torah for 18
live-streamed hours to raise money for the yeshiva he heads. This year,
on Lag Ba-Omer, he will be attempting to break that record by teaching
for 19 straight hours. This is a cause worth supporting -- or is it?

I. Which Charity?

Many people in the Jewish community have achieved varieties of financial
success, allowing them the privilege of supporting many charities. This
raises questions of communal and philanthropic priorities. Others have
limited charity funds but still want to allocate them effectively. The
issue is a blessing but also a complex problem, with multiple angles. Rav
Hershel Schachter discussed this with me a few years ago in [48]Jewish
Action. I would like to explore a specific subject that I have seen
discussed in the responsa literature -- what is the best charity if you
have to choose only one?

In mid-sixteenth century Turkey, a wealthy man passed away without
leaving instructions for the disposal of his charity funds. The local
rabbis decided that some of that charity money should be given to the
deceased's poor brother but the sons of the deceased objected that they
should inherit the money and decide what to do with it. The question was
brought to the Maharshdam, Rav Shmuel Di Medina of Salonica (Responsa
Maharshdam, Yoreh De'ah 158).

Maharshdam says that we have to try to determine the deceased's desires
for the charity fund. Since in this case we do not know his intentions,
we should give the money to the highest level of charity. The Tur
(Yoreh De'ah 259) quotes his father, the Rosh, as saying that a town
may reallocate to a study hall money that was donated to a synagogue
or cemetery. Maharshdam argues that if in a case in which we know with
certainty that the donor intended for the money to go to a synagogue
we can use it for a study hall, then certainly when we do not know the
donor's intention we can use the money to support Torah study. If we
give the money to a lesser charity, we risk misusing the donation.

II. Higher Torah

The question then becomes which Torah study organization receives higher
priority. Maharshdam quotes the Gemara (Shabbos 119b) that the world
survives because of the Torah study of children, who due to their age
are free of responsibility from sin. Additionally, more people doing
a mitzvah together has greater merit than fewer people. Therefore,
concludes Maharshdam, the money should be given to ththe highest charity
-- a large elementary school.

Similarly, Rav Ephraim Navon in early eighteenth century Turkey addresses
a related question (Machaneh Ephraim (Hilkhos Tzedakah 11). A man
donated money to establish in a small town a part-time kollel of ten
men studying Torah. However, the town could not find ten men willing
to enroll. The donor wished to change the endowment from a kollel to a
full-time elementary school teacher. Rav Navon permitted this reallocation
for technical reasons but adds that this new purpose is higher than the
original because the Torah study of children sustains the world.

III. God's Place

However, Rav Yosef Eliyahu Chazzan challenges this argument (Ma'arkhei
Lev vol. 1 no. 25). He quotes the Gemara (Berakhos 8a) which states that
nowadays God only has the four cubits of halakhah. Therefore, He loves
the distinguished gates of halakhah more than all the synagogues and
other study halls. According to this passage, high-level Torah study
merits higher priority than any other study. This seems to contradict
the earlier passage, which gives priority to children's Torah study.

This question gains greater strength when we note that the priority
of high-level Torah has practical implications. Rambam (Mishneh Torah,
Hilkhos Tefillah 8:3) rules, based on the above Gemara, that it is better
to pray in a study hall than a synagogue. Shulchan Arukh (Orach Chaim
90:18) rules likewise. Since the two passages seem to contradict and
the latter is quoted authoritatively, it would seem that an elementary
school should not be given priority over adult Torah study.

Rav Chaim Palaggi (Chaim Be-Yad nos. 64-65) favors the interpretation of
Rav Chazzan. However, he struggles with the many authorities who side with
the Maharshdam. Rather than taking a minority view against the majority,
in an impressive act of intellectual humility Rav Palaggi adopts a middle
position that gives due weight to the majority with which he disagrees.

IV. Jewish Behavior

Perhaps a reconciliation of the two passages lies in the Rambam's
interpretation. Rav Chazzan and Rav Palaggi follow Maharsha's
interpretation that the Gemara is praising high-level study of
halakhah. In the introduction to his commentary to the Mishnah (ed.
Kafach, vol. 1, p. 21), Rambam sees the passage about the four cubits of
halakhah as a general declaration about the uniqueness of true loyalty
to the letter and spirit of halakhah. Synagogues and study halls may be
full of people studying Torah but not enough of those students apply these
teachings properly to develop a faithful Torah personality. Only someone
who internalizes the messages of halakhah can reach out fully to God.

If so, the distinguished gates of halakhah may overlap with elementary
schools. Schools that teach proper character traits seem to qualify
as remaining within the four cubits of halakhah, whether for adults or
children. An elementary school that trains its students to follow the law,
to embrace and internalize the messages of Judaism regarding behavior and
thought, serves in the same capacity as a high-level kollel. Both types
of institutions are distinguished gates of halakhah. Elementary schools
have the additional benefit of purity, discussed above.

If this is correct, the highest charity would be an elementary school
that emphasizes proper behavior and attitudes, a mussar-focused cheder
that directs pure children on the proper path.

About Gil Student

Rabbi Gil Student is the founder, publisher and editor-in-chief of
Torah Musings.

?When R "Mr" Schraga Feivel Mendelovitch had limudei chol instituted
in Torah vaDaas, do you think the "vaDaas" was his idea of lekhat-chilah??

One thing I learned in my years as an attorney is that a rhetorical
question is not an argument. I, of course, do not know what Mr.
Mendelovitch thought. What I do know is that in the 40s TV was very proud
of the secular academics and business successes of its graduates and the
fact that they were role models for those who wanted to continue to be
observant in a work environment. 
Joseph
Sent from my iPhone

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 01:08:35AM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote:
:                              I, of course, do not know what
: Mr. Mendelovitch thought. What I do know is that in the 40s TV was very
: proud of the secular academics and business successes of its graduates
: and the fact that they were role models for those who wanted to continue
: to be observant in a work environment.

Historical (and hagiographical) accounts portray the request for secular
education that would make college and professions possible options came
from the target audience, a majority of the parents of Brooklyn, not R
"Mr." Mendlowitz.

His launching of the HS was by convincing 8th grade parents to keep
their sons in TvD "just one more year", as the parents wanted their
boys to go to Public HS. That was the importance of getting a real
American education had to his customer base. Then, it was another
"just one more year" into 10th grade, until he had his first graduating
class.

There wasn't an issue for him of getting secular education into TvD,
it was an issue of getting parents to agree to commit time to limudei
qodesh!

So of course TvD made a big deal about the quality of their secular
studies. The whole point their marketing had to make was that the son can
learn Torah without parents feeling afraid their boys would be held back.

Getting back to the main conversation:

What R-"Mr"-SFM thought is more of a historical  issue. My point was
that the push for limudei chol in day schools at the time the movement
(not the first day school!) was getting started came from the parents,
not the idealogues.

There is no indication the decision was lechat-khilah, as this wasn't a
lechat-khilah situation. Limudei qodesh without a guarantee of pre-college
quality education wasn't a vaiable option in most communities, not a
choice on the table.

Meanwhile, the big voice in American O Rabbinate of the time was the
East European Rabbi, and not an ideological immigrant who had a pull
to America, but someone who came fleeing either progroms or Nazism. We
know the majority of them considered limudei chol an assimilationist
force. Or is that too under question?


(I used the name "R 'Mr.' SF Mendlowitz" [or misspelled as per the usual
pronounciation "-olovitch"] because he asked people to call him "Mr." and
therefore I thought it respectful to acknowledge it. Even though here,
"R" is the default title for men. Then I was afraid people who didn't
know the history would think insult was intended, so I am adding this
parenthetic explanation.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 20th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        2 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Tifferes: What role does harmony
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   play in maintaining relationships?

With the greatest trepidation I will share a few thoughts. I knew (to the
extent one can know someone) R'Ozer Yeshaya Glickman Hacohain Z"L for 40
years. In the early years we learned together. He certainly was far more
able than I but we did discuss many tum issues over the years. I don't
think he would be happy being held up as a unicorn even though his blending
of both worlds was the reason he felt he was asked by the Yeshiva to be "on
the road" so much. I believe he felt that anyone could do what he did at
their own level. When the hurley burleys done the question the yeshiva
needs to ask itself imho is have they encouraged (or perhaps should they-my
uninformed sense is that RIETS looks at the separate mountain approach as a
vision -a la r'ybs) broad lives( a la r'hutner) in any of their best and
brightest? do they seek out role models of that nature or only exceptional
examples in specific accomplishments (e.g big TC or big $ but not a
balancer)? Balancing priorities is 
 a big ch
 allenge in life, if one wants to honor R'OYG Z"L imho one might start with
 some cheshbon hanefesh looking at his balance and its message for us (no
 two of us will likely reach the same conclusions but that's what is to be
 expected-it's the process not the results) yhi zichro baruch

KT
Joel Rich

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I believe this version of the story told by R? S Mandel in Jewish Action-not the ?gotcha? version I?ve heard.
When a group of feminists visited him and demanded that he permit them to
wear tallitot, he listened to them, showed he understood their reasoning,
and proposed that there first be a trial period during which they would
wear colored cloaks as tallitot, but without tzitzit and without reciting a
berachah. He asked them to note how they feel wearing them and to come back
after two weeks and confer with them again. After two weeks, they
reconvened, and when the Rav asked these women how they felt, they told him
how inspired they felt when wearing the cloaks. The Rav replied that that
was excellent, that they should definitely continue wearing the cloaks and
praying with kavannah, and that there was no need to wear the tallitot with
tzitzit that men wore. Most of the women accepted this response, because
the Rav treated their question with genuine respect and listened to their
grievances.

KT
Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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We are counting towards Shevuous which commemorates the giving of the Torah. The question is "What is Torah?'


The following is from RSRH's essay Sivan I that I have posted at Sivan
I<https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/sivan_1.pdf>
(Collected Writings I)


The Torah, however, did not spring from the breast of mortal man;
it is the message of the God of Heaven and Earth to Man; and it was
from the very beginning so high above the cultural level of the people
to which it was given, that during the three thousand years of its
existence there was never a time yet during which Israel was quite
abreast of the Torah, when the Torah could be said to have been
completely translated into practice. The Torah is rather the highest
aim, the ultimate goal towards which the Jewish nation was to be
guided through all its fated wanderings among the nations of the
world. This imperfection of the Jewish people and its need of education
is presupposed and clearly expressed in the Torah from the very
beginning. There is, therefore, no stronger evidence for the Divine
origin and uniqueness of the Torah than the continuous backsliding,
the continuous rebellion against it on the part of the Jewish people,
whose first generation perished because of this very rebellion. But the
Torah has outlived all the generations of Israel and is still awaiting
that coming age which "at the end of days" will be fully ripe for it.
Thus, the Torah manifests from the very beginning its superhuman
origin. It has no development and no history; it is rather the people of
the Torah which has a history. And this history is nothing else but its
continuous training and striving to rise to the unchangeable, eternal
height on which the Torah is set, this Torah that has nothing in
common with what is commonly called "religion." How hopelessly
false is it, therefore, to call this Torah "religion," and thus drag it by
this name into the circle of other phenomena in the history of human
civilization, to which it does not belong. This is a fundamentally wrong
starting point, and it is small wonder that it gives rise to questions such
as the following, which have no meaning so far as the Torah is
concerned: "You want Judaism to remain the same for ever?" "All
religions rejuvenate themselves and advance with the progress of the
nations, and only the Jewish 'Religion' wants to remain rigid, always
the same, and refuses to yield to the views of an enlightened age?"


See the above URL for much more.  YL

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