Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 55

Sun, 06 May 2018

• 1. Re: Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign Practices: Rav Wosner's Responsum (Zev Sero)
• 2. Bow and Arrow on Lag B?Omer (Professor L. Levine)
• 3. Lag B"omer (Prof. Levine)
• 4. The Mysterious Origin of Lag Ba-Omer (Professor L. Levine)
• 5. Re: Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign Practices: Rav Wosner's Responsum (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Lag B"omer (Ben Waxman)
• 7. Re: Judging The Credibility Of The Sages (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Metzora and Zav (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign Practices: Rav Wosner's Responsum (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Lag B"omer (Prof. Levine)
• 11. Re: Judging The Credibility Of The Sages (Prof. Levine)
• 12. Re: Lag B"omer (Ben Waxman)
• 13. Re: Farfetched Ukimtas (Marty Bluke)

On 03/05/18 14:56, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 01:17:41PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> : But in any case the question was about how Sefardim go at night, and
> : the answer is the same way they go by day.
> 
> The question is: How does anyone go at night, as the minhag hage'onim
> (? early rishonim?) includes Lag la-/baOmer night according to both
> Ashk and Seph?


And the answer is that (a) Yom Simchas Rashbi, which was unknown in the 
days of the Ge'onim and Rishonim, begins at nightfall.  Thus their 
words, which are about the day the plague stopped, aren't applicable to 
the new holiday, so those who drop aveilus for it do so from nightfall. 
  (b) The Meron celebrations, which the question was about, don't 
violate the sefira observances anyway.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

From  http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=50532


A 4-year-old son of a Shliach in Florida was hit in his eye by an arrow on Lag BaOmer. Please pray for Baruch Shmuel ben Chana.


I do hope he has a refuah shleima.


This got me to wondering why a bow and arrow are associated with Lag B"Omer.


From https://goo.gl/kumYeX


One custom often mentioned in connection with Lag BaOmer, though it is less
common than formerly, is for the young students to play with bows and
arrows. It is remarkable that the day devoted to the memory of Rebbe Shimon
bar Yochai, who was so absorbed in Torah learning that he didn?t even take
time for prayers, is marked by having the youngsters take a break from
their Torah studies. It is also surprising that they should pass the time
with such a martial activity, seemingly out of character with the day
devoted to the man of peace.

Rav Menachem Mendel of Rimanov, one of the early Hasidic Rebbes, explained
that the custom is based on the Midrash which states that all the days of
Rebbe Shimon bar Yochai, the rainbow didn?t appear in the sky. (Ketubot 77b
the same is said there of Rebbe Yehoshua ben Levi.) Rashi explains that the
rainbow is the sign of the covenant that the world will not be destroyed,
and if there is a perfect tzaddik in the world there is no need of such a
sign. (Cited by B?nei Yissachar on Lag BaOmer.)


See the above URL for more.  YL
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At 06:24 AM 5/4/2018, Simon Montagu wrote:

> > There is no evidence that anyone at all celebrated Lag B'Omer before the
> > 17th century. (Please correct me if you have evidence otherwise.)
> >
>
>I wonder if the author of this article recites Kabbalat Shabbat and sings
>Lecha Dodi on Friday nights. There is no evidence that anyone at all did
>that before the 16th century.

In Ashkenaz shuls it used to be the custom (and probably still is in 
some places) that Kabbolas Shabbos was said from the shulchan where 
the Torah is leined rather that from where the Shatz normally davened 
for the Amud.  This is to show that Kabbolas Shabbos was an addition 
to the davening.

Kabbolas Shabbos was not accepted in Frankfurt for some time,  and I 
was told that in one place the Shatz did not wear a talis for it to 
show that it was not really part of the davening.

YL
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Please see http://www.hakirah.org/Vol20First.pdf

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On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 03:08:37PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
:> The question is: How does anyone go at night, as the minhag hage'onim
:> (? early rishonim?) includes Lag la-/baOmer night according to both
:> Ashk and Seph?

: And the answer is that (a) Yom Simchas Rashbi, which was unknown in
: the days of the Ge'onim and Rishonim, begins at nightfall.  Thus
: their words, which are about the day the plague stopped, aren't
: applicable to the new holiday, so those who drop aveilus for it do
: so from nightfall...

You are okay with uprooting what was then a 700+ year old minhag,
nispahseit bekhol Yisrael, codified in the SA, in light of new
information? That's exactly the process question I'm asking about.

If we were talking halakhah, I do not think we could overturn a
comparably accepted accepted pesaq because someone learned something
aggadic.

But moving on to the hashkafic implications of your statement: Never mind
the need to believe that this new information is part of a "continuous
revelation" model of matan Torah; I already knew Chassidim differ from
what I was raised to believe on that.

I wonder. According to RMMS, Yom Simchas Rashbi is a logical consequence
of the end of the plague. R' Aqiva couldn't teach the whole generation
anymore; so he started teaching 5 new leaders, so that they can take
over. One of whom was R' Shimon. So, what was revealed to the Ari (in
this understanding of how the Ari got his Qabbalah) that geonim and
rishonim couldn't have known about?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 34th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  and maintain a stable relationship?

Bottom line: They do it or they don't?

Ben
On 5/4/2018 2:04 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> Kabbolas Shabbos was not accepted in Frankfurt for some time,? and I 
> was told that in one place the Shatz did not wear a talis for it to 
> show that it was not really part of the davening.


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On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 04:03:11PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: Let me begin with Daas Torah.
...
: The idea of the infallibility of  religious leaders is, IMO, a
: result of the Chassidization of Yahadus.  I do not believe that this
: was prevalent in the non-Chassidic world prior to WW II.

It is also not normative Aggudist thought today. I cannot speak to the
popularity of the idea, but it's not what they mean when their ideologues
speak of it. Daas Torah has a number of formulations, none of which are
infallibility. This is simply a strawman nay-sayers like to address.

So what are those formulations? Here are 3 I know of:

1- Given how the gadol's mind is shapeds by his learning, he is a useful
resource for advice. He could be wrong, but aren't your odds better
by asking?

2- Asking a gadol will get you the answer Hashem wants you to act on,
whether it is the truth or not. E.g. the error of advising agaisnt
fleeing the Nazis was because that was what Hashem wanted of us. But it
was still pragmatically in error.

I also see hints of this model in RALichtenstein's "Im Ein Daas, Manhigut
Minayin?" but with the added caveat that RAL didn't expect to find daas
Torah in practice. (Not since RSZA.) Again, just implications; I could
be reading too much into the essay.

3- R' Dovid Cohen's formulation is based on melukhah. When malkhus
stopped, muich of the king's power fell to the Sanhedrin. When the
Sanhdring stopped, rabbanim inherited much of their authority, or act
as their sheluchim in abstentia. Therefore, we are obligated to make
gedolim our communal leadership. (Nothing to do with asking Daas Torah on
personal issues, which this model does not speak about.) Right or wrong,
they are supposed to lead.

RYBS's hesped for R CO Grozhinsky, "HaTzitz vehaChoshen" was made before
RYBS's split from Agudah. His thesis was that the same kohein gadol who
carries "Qadosh Lashem" on the tzitz is the same one who carries the
names of the shevatim on the choshen, and whose Urim veTumim is asked
questions of dividing nachalah or whether to go to war. Sounds much like
the same model.


Notice that all advocate listening to gedolim even on non-halachic
matters, but not because of any guarantees about accuracy.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 34th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  and maintain a stable relationship?

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 07:12:36AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Both tzaraas and zav are examples of a different sort of tumah. They
: have physical symptoms that are easily visible to the untrained eye
: (although not everyone is qualified to evaluate those symptoms), so
: much so that they can be easily confused with medical illnesses....

The relationship to a kohein is trickier than that, as their is no tum'ah
until after the declaration. He is more parallel to an eid qiyum than
an eid birur.

For example, Vayiqra 14:36 tells a person to remove all the items from
his home before the kohein comes to inspect a potential nega in it. Even
even if the kohein sees the same unchanged splotch and declares it a nega,
those itsems are not tamei. It wasn't a nega until the declaration.

...
: My question is this: Are there any suggestions why a person would
: become a zav? If a person finds that he is a zav, does this indicate
: some specific aveira or midah that he needs to work on? Or is it just
: another case of, "Oy, look what happened to me; I need to improve
: myself in general."

Tum'as leidah isn't because something is spiritually awry with the
mother. So I am not sure we have to assume that zivah is like tzara'as.

Lefi RSRH, tum'ah comes from things that could make us overly identify
with our bodies -- death, birth, the kinds of sheratzim that share our
homes (in EY), niddah... Zivah and leidah would fit that pattern.

So would tzara'as, because it too feels like the body is rebelling against
the will. The difference is that chazal is saying the body really is
rebelling (or made to show rebellion) against a tainted will.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 34th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  and maintain a stable relationship?

On 04/05/18 10:58, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, May 03, 2018 at 03:08:37PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> :> The question is: How does anyone go at night, as the minhag hage'onim
> :> (? early rishonim?) includes Lag la-/baOmer night according to both
> :> Ashk and Seph?
> 
> : And the answer is that (a) Yom Simchas Rashbi, which was unknown in
> : the days of the Ge'onim and Rishonim, begins at nightfall.  Thus
> : their words, which are about the day the plague stopped, aren't
> : applicable to the new holiday, so those who drop aveilus for it do
> : so from nightfall...
> 
> You are okay with uprooting what was then a 700+ year old minhag,
> nispahseit bekhol Yisrael, codified in the SA, in light of new
> information? That's exactly the process question I'm asking about.

Nothing is being uprooted.  Something new has come.  Just as when a 
local "Purim" or lehavdil a fast is declared.


> If we were talking halakhah, I do not think we could overturn a
> comparably accepted accepted pesaq because someone learned something
> aggadic.
> 
> But moving on to the hashkafic implications of your statement: Never mind
> the need to believe that this new information is part of a "continuous
> revelation" model of matan Torah; I already knew Chassidim differ from
> what I was raised to believe on that.
> 
> I wonder. According to RMMS, Yom Simchas Rashbi is a logical consequence
> of the end of the plague. R' Aqiva couldn't teach the whole generation
> anymore; so he started teaching 5 new leaders, so that they can take
> over. One of whom was R' Shimon. So, what was revealed to the Ari (in
> this understanding of how the Ari got his Qabbalah) that geonim and
> rishonim couldn't have known about?

They didn't know about the Zohar, let alone the Idra Zuta and R Shimon's 
request that people rejoice at his "hilula".


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

At 12:57 PM 5/4/2018, Ben Waxman wrote:
>Bottom line: They do it or they don't?
>
>Ben
>On 5/4/2018 2:04 PM, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>>Kabbolas Shabbos was not accepted in Frankfurt for some time,  and 
>>I was told that in one place the Shatz did not wear a talis for it 
>>to show that it was not really part of the davening.
>

Minhag Frankfurt says Kabbolas Shabbos, but the Tehillim at the 
beginning are said responsively.  The Shatz stands at the table where 
leining takes place and wears a talis. After Kabbolas Shabbos is over 
he moves to the front where the Shatz normally leads the davening.
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At 12:41 PM 5/4/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 04:03:11PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>: Let me begin with Daas Torah.
>...
>: The idea of the infallibility of  religious leaders is, IMO, a
>: result of the Chassidization of Yahadus.  I do not believe that this
>: was prevalent in the non-Chassidic world prior to WW II.
>
>It is also not normative Aggudist thought today. I cannot speak to the
>popularity of the idea, but it's not what they mean when their ideologues
>speak of it. Daas Torah has a number of formulations, none of which are
>infallibility. This is simply a strawman nay-sayers like to address.
Please see the article To Flee Or To Stay?  at 
http://www.hakirah.org/vol%209%20bobker.pdf

At the end of the article it says, "This article is excerpted from 
Joe Bobker's "The Rabbis and the Holocaust," to
be published by Geffen Books in the summer of 2010."  However,  to 
the best of my knowledge this book was never published,  and I have 
always wondered why.

YL

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Bseder. We are all agreed that even Frankfurt changed their seider 
Tefilla sometime in the last few hundred years. Many shuls have someone, 
even a child, say (sing) the tehillim from the bimah.

Ben
On 5/4/2018 8:51 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Minhag Frankfurt says Kabbolas Shabbos, but the Tehillim at the 
> beginning are said responsively.? The Shatz stands at the table where 
> leining takes place and wears a talis. After Kabbolas Shabbos is over 
> he moves to the front where the Shatz normally leads the davening.

Yesterday's daf (Zevachim 22) has another wild ukimta that seems to just be
there to answer a question on an amora and not provide a sterile
environment to learn out a new principle.


Here is the gist of the Gemara:


R. Yosi b'Rebbi Chanina states if the Kiyor does not contain enough water
to be Mekadesh four Kohanim, it is invalid - "v'Rachatzu Mimenu Moshe
v'Aharon u'Vanav."


The Gemara asks a question from the following Baraisa: One may be Mekadesh
from any Keli Shares, whether or not it contains a Revi'is of water (this
is much less then the water needed for 4 people)


Rav Ada bar Acha answers: The case is, the Keli Shares was carved into the
Kiyor (so the water comes from the Kiyor, which contains enough water to be
Mekadesh four Kohanim).


I don't see any way that you can say here that the ukimta is to remove
extraneous dinim etc. The ukimta here seems to serve one and only one
purpose, explain the Barisa that it is not a question on an Amora.
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