Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 78

Tue, 03 Jul 2018

• 1. Question About Cholov Yisroel milk (Professor L. Levine)
• 2. Re: Question About Cholov Yisroel milk (Zev Sero)
• 3. Pinchas (Eli Turkel)
• 4. Re: Chukas (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: When Shabbos is Motzaei Rosh Chodesh (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: AN INSTANCE OF THE 7th KIND OF CONTRADICTION IN THE MOREH NEVUCHIM (H Lampel)
• 7. Re: The Molad of Tamuz (David Cohen)
• 8. Re: The Molad of Tamuz (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: The Molad of Tamuz (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Chukas (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: The Molad of Tamuz (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: The Molad of Tamuz (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: The Molad of Tamuz (Zev Sero)

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. I visited a farm and saw cows being milked. I only drink Cholov Yisroel
milk. May I buy the milk that was produced during my visit to the farm? (A
consumer question)



A. A Cholov Yisroel consumer should not buy such milk. The Rama (Yoreh Deah
115:1) writes that the Yisroel who supervises the milking should be present
at techilas ha-chalivah ? the start of the milking ? and that he should
inspect the milking equipment before commencement of the milking, in order
to verify that no unsupervised milk is present and that the equipment has
been fully cleaned. If this was not done, the Rama permits such milk only
b?dieved (after the fact), while others prohibit it entirely for Cholov
Yisroel use.

Unless your visit to the farm includes an inspection of the milking
equipment prior to the start of the milking (and you also supervised the
completion of the milking and verified the cleanliness of all milk
processing and storage equipment), the milk which you saw there should not
be purchased as Cholov Yisroel.


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On 02/07/18 09:22, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>  From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
> 
> 
> **
> 
> *Q. I visited a farm and saw cows being milked. I only drink /Cholov 
> Yisroel/ milk. May I buy the milk that was produced during my visit to 
> the farm? (A consumer question)*
> 
> A. A /Cholov Yisroel/ consumer should not buy such milk.
> [...]
> Unless your visit to the farm includes an inspection of the milking 
> equipment prior to the start of the milking (and you also supervised the 
> completion of the milking and verified the cleanliness of all milk 
> processing and storage equipment), the milk which you saw there should 
> not be purchased as /Cholov Yisroel/.


While as a practical matter this is probably correct at many farms, I 
think it's not a correct answer to the question as given.  Yes, you may 
buy the milk that was produced during your visit, *but only that milk*. 
  What the OU's answer says is that you can't buy milk that was produced 
*before* your visit.  Whether this is physically possible depends on how 
the system is set up.  At many farms the milk travels from cow to tank 
in a closed system, and it's impossible to catch it before it spills 
into the tank together with all the milk that was produced before you 
got there.  But I've seen farms where it is possible to catch the milk 
in a jug before it spills into the tank, and at such an establishment 
you may indeed buy that milk.  (The equipment from cow to the point 
where you catch the milk is washed by the milk that went through it a 
minute ago, so if you were there for a few minutes before you put your 
jug to the pipe it should be OK.)

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

Pinchas became a cohen either at the end of the 40 years in the desert or
even in the days of Yehoshua (makloket in the gemara).
Especially according to ther second opinion this implied that there were
only 2 cohanim for much of the period of Yehoshua to run the Mishkan

Do we know anything about other sons of Elazar or Itamar?

-- 
Eli Turkel
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On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 03:13:52PM -0400, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
: 
: 4) The Midrash to this chapter focuses primarily on one paradox in the
: laws of the Red Cow: Its ashes purify people who had become contaminated;
: yet those who engage in its preparation become contaminated. I
: thought of a contemporary example of something that would appear just
: as paradoxical. Radiation treatment is used to treat many forms of
: cancer, and yet, the same radiation can cause cancer. For someone who
: has no knowledge of medicine, this would appear as irrational as the
: paradox of the Red Cow....

"Try not to think about purple elephants for the next 5 minutes!"

For most people, such advice would greatly increase the likelihood
that they would indeed think about purple elephants. But to someone
whose mind is already on the subject, if they try to heed your advice,
it might make it less likely they that continue the obsession.

The problem is... This law of parah adumah causing tum'ah is only to
the one sprinkling. It's not that the water itself causes tum'ah, it's
the act of using it to purify someone else.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 07:56:14AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: In just a few weeks, we will observe Rosh Chodesh Menachem Av. This
: particular Rosh Chodesh is always only one day long, and this year it
: happens to fall on Erev Shabbos. This means that when Shabbos occurs, Rosh
: Chodesh will be over. I want to discuss the ramifications of a person who
: begins Shabbos early in this situation.
...
: In such a situation, what additions does one add to Birkas Hamazon?
...
: I don't recall ever learning about this particular situation. There is an
: analogous but very different situation that I have seen discussed, namely
: that of a Seuda Shlishit that begins on Shabbos Erev Rosh Chodesh, and
: continues into Rosh Chodesh Motzaei Shabbos. In that case, the poskim give
: a wide variety of answers...

And also for multiple rationals:

Is the maon part of the meal at the beginning, and therefore one says
retzeih? Or is it that if any part of of the meal is on Shabbos? Or
conversely, that it's the time you're bentching that matters.

Or that it is a "Shabbos meal"?

Or is the dispute about whether the clock matters, thanks to tosefes
Shabbos, but then if Shabbos in this sense too ends when you choose to
end it, what act actually makes Shabbos "over enough" to cause one not
to say retzeih?

And then there's the tarta desasrei issue when it comes to Retzeih
followed by Raaleh veYavo.

For most of those, the start and end of Shabbos would be pretty parallel,
and the same answer for both.

But if it's about time... In both cases is was a Shabbos se'udah. And
in both cases part of the meal was on Shabbos, so it could be a retzeih
whether at the start of Shabbos or the end.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

I wrote ''flouted.'' I meant ''touted.''


On 7/1/2018 4:25 PM, H Lampel wrote:
> AN INSTANCE OF THE 7th KIND OF CONTRADICTION IN THE MOREH NEVUCHIM
>
> The Rambam?s seventh kind of contradiction# is often flouted as a 
> declaration that in the Guide he will purposely profess opinions one 
> place that stealthily contradict opinions he professes elsewhere.

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I saw this whole discussion all at once in a digest, so I'd like to comment
on a few different things.


   1. Regarding the question of how to map "molad time" onto an actual time
   on our clocks:  For the primary and originally intended purpose of the
   molad, setting the calendar, the answer is that it doesn't matter.  All we
   need to know is whether the "molad time" is before or after the cutoff for
   Rosh haShana being on a given day.  The question of what the "molad time"
   means in actual time only matters if you're using it to determine the
   earliest or latest time for kiddush levana.

   2. As RZS wrote, since the time from molad to molad is intended to be
   constant, it *should* be obvious that "molad time" is local *mean* time (of
   some meridian or another).  Yet, as RSM demonstrated, despite this
   ostensibly obvious point, other shitot do exist.  In order to understand
   how this could be, consider that the universal everyday use of a
   timekeeping system centered around mean noon is a relatively recent
   development.  People living in a society using fixed hours that got "reset"
   every day at apparent solar noon or at sunset -- and who didn't have their
   own clocks -- or at least didn't have clocks  precise enough that they
   wouldn't need to be reset every day anyway -- probably wouldn't feel the
   one- or two-minute difference in the lengths of their "24-hour days" over
   the course of the year.  Unless they were students of astronomy, they might
   not even be aware of it.  Someone using apparent solar time might have
   really thought that each noon is exactly 24 hours after the last one, and
   someone using Ottoman time ("sha'on Eretz Yisrael") might have really
   thought that each sunset is exactly 24 hours after the last one, and that
   all of the seasonal variation is in the time of sunrise.

   3. Regarding the question of whether any shul announces the molad in the
   traditional format (hours and chalakim from 18:00), rather than using
   modern nomenclature, see the article at
   http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%206%20Loewinger.pdf, where Eng. Yaakov
   Loewinger advocates doing exactly that.  One of the gabba'im in our shul
   started doing it like that years ago, and when I succeeded him I continued
   it for a while (using the molad Av that will be announced this coming
   Shabbos as an example, I would say "hamolad yihyeh 12 sha'ot ve-890
   chalakim mi-techilat leyl Shishi"). but I stopped after a while because it
   was leaving almost everyone thoroughly confused.

   4. Regarding Sha'on Eretz Yisrael (SEY) --the Ottomon clock -- in those
   contexts in which it is still used (in "Yishuv haYashan" circles), the time
   of sunset is absolutely set to 12:00, not 6:00.  You can see this in the
   way each molad is listed in SEY in the Tukachinsky luach.  As RMB pointed
   out, there is a clock showing SEY next to the "regular" clock in the Gra
   shul in Shaarei Chesed (it's still there -- in "cheder harabbanim").  The
   Perushi shul in Batei Warsaw also has both kinds of clocks, and in Batei
   Nitin, both of the 2 clocks on the wall are set to SEY!  Just yesterday, I
   davened in Batei Broyde, where the clocks on the wall are all set to
   "regular" time, but the schedule mentioned (in addition to giving the
   regular clock time) that maariv at the end of the fast would be at 12:18
   SEY (as opposed to 12:30 SEY like it is on regular days).

-- D.C.
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On 02/07/18 16:47, David Cohen via Avodah wrote:
> Regarding the question of whether any shul announces the molad in the 
> traditional format (hours and chalakim from 18:00), rather than using 
> modern nomenclature, see the article at 
> http://www.hakirah.org/Vol%206%20Loewinger.pdf, where Eng. Yaakov 
> Loewinger advocates doing exactly that.

So rather than being a tradition, it's a fringe innovation that someone 
proposed in an article, and perhaps one or two shuls have adopted.  Is 
there any community in the world that actually has this as its tradition?

As the author points out, the whole practise of announcing the molad is 
only ~200 years old, by which time the modern clock, starting at 
midnight and with hours and minutes, was already well entrenched; it 
therefore stands to reason that this is how it was introduced and there 
has *never* been a tradition of announcing it in any other way.

As for his discussion of the propriety of this announcement, I found it 
bizarre.  The purpose of the announcement seems obvious: as he himself 
notes there are multiple sources saying that it's proper to know when 
the molad is, and the most efficient way to let people know is for it to 
be announced just before they need the information.  I'm flabbergasted 
at his problem with this obviously useful innovation; we announce all 
kinds of things in shul: when mincha will be, upcoming community events, 
mazeltovs and r"l the opposite, sponsorships of various things, eruv 
status, etc.  Why not this?  How is it different?

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Tue, Jul 03, 2018 at 02:06:47AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
:              The purpose of the announcement seems obvious: as he
: himself notes there are multiple sources saying that it's proper to
: know when the molad is, and the most efficient way to let people
: know is for it to be announced just before they need the
: information....

I do not believe this is true. If it were, the most efficient way would
be to announce the time in local standard time. (And then I wouldn't
have room to speculate whether the clock being used is really J-m Mean
Time rather than mean time for some meridian further east.) Aside from
a tiny minority of us pendants, who bothers subtracting out the time to
know what the announcement means to them?

When I asked an LOR this question I was given a prettier explanation
for the minhag. ("Prettiness" being subjective, of course.)

The Shaar Hakollel (26:7) writes that Birkhas haChodesh is a
reenactment of the idea that the Sanhedrin would recite a tefillah
when they were meqadshim hachodesh. (Sofrim 19:9) We therefore
announce the time as they did, using the clock they would have.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Weeds are flowers too
mi...@aishdas.org        once you get to know them.
http://www.aishdas.org          - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Yesterday, at 4:35pm EDT, I wrote:
: The problem is... This law of parah adumah causing tum'ah is only to
: the one sprinkling. It's not that the water itself causes tum'ah, it's
: the act of using it to purify someone else.

I said that backwards. It applies to everyone handling the parah adumah
EXCEPT the one sprinking.

Still, my point remains. The puzzle of the choq is more than just
metaheir the tamei and metamei the tahor, because the PA water isn't
metamei every tahor person who touches it.


Thanks to R AZ Zivitofsky for the correction. He deserves extra credit
for trying to do so off list and not embarasess me publicly. But, he is
hereby thwarted.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If you're going through hell
mi...@aishdas.org        keep going.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Winston Churchill
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 03/07/18 06:37, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 03, 2018 at 02:06:47AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> :              The purpose of the announcement seems obvious: as he
> : himself notes there are multiple sources saying that it's proper to
> : know when the molad is, and the most efficient way to let people
> : know is for it to be announced just before they need the
> : information....
> 
> I do not believe this is true. If it were, the most efficient way would
> be to announce the time in local standard time.

How is that more efficient?  How does the format of the announcement 
affect the efficiency at all?

> Aside from
> a tiny minority of us pendants, who bothers subtracting out the time to
> know what the announcement means to them?

I'm sorry, I think we're talking at cross purposes, because I don't 
understand what you're saying.


> When I asked an LOR this question I was given a prettier explanation
> for the minhag. ("Prettiness" being subjective, of course.)
> 
> The Shaar Hakollel (26:7) writes that Birkhas haChodesh is a
> reenactment of the idea that the Sanhedrin would recite a tefillah
> when they were meqadshim hachodesh. (Sofrim 19:9) We therefore
> announce the time as they did, using the clock they would have.

That's not a reason for the announcement, it's a reason for knowing. 
We're discussing the announcement, which the author denounces, not the 
knowing, which he approves of; my contention is that the announcement is 
simply the most efficient way for people to know.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Tue, Jul 03, 2018 at 06:53:34AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: How is that more efficient?  How does the format of the announcement
: affect the efficiency at all?

It is inefficient to tell people information in a language they do not
know.

Such as telling them the time using a clock few people know the meaning
of. (And again, I suggested that it could be nearly all of them are
wrong as well.)

:> The Shaar haKollel (26:7) writes that Birkhas haChodesh is a
:> reenactment of the idea that the Sanhedrin would recite a tefillah
:> when they were meqadshim hachodesh. (Sofrim 19:9) We therefore
:> announce the time as they did, using the clock they would have.

: That's not a reason for the announcement, it's a reason for knowing.

Says you. You're just denying my point without basis. The ShK talks
about the Sanhedrin announcing, not their knowing. Making it about the
informational content of the announcement is an interpolation.

I can see anouncing the molad on the traditional clock, for tradition's
sake. Which is closer to my point. But to inform, you need to speak in
a language the audience knows. We would at least follow up with an
announcement on the local clock.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Worrying is like a rocking chair:
mi...@aishdas.org        it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org   but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 03/07/18 07:21, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 03, 2018 at 06:53:34AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> : How is that more efficient?  How does the format of the announcement
> : affect the efficiency at all?
> 
> It is inefficient to tell people information in a language they do not
> know.

This assumes that they ought to know the molad in the local time. Why?



> :> The Shaar haKollel (26:7) writes that Birkhas haChodesh is a
> :> reenactment of the idea that the Sanhedrin would recite a tefillah
> :> when they were meqadshim hachodesh. (Sofrim 19:9) We therefore
> :> announce the time as they did, using the clock they would have.
> 
> : That's not a reason for the announcement, it's a reason for knowing.
> 
> Says you. You're just denying my point without basis.

No, says the ShK, and the Siddur on which it is commenting.  As the 
article we are discussing points out, the Siddur says nothing about any 
announcement, and no announcement was customary when it was written. THe 
ShK is giving a reason for the Siddur's statement, not introducing some 
new practice, and indeed he too says nothing about any announcement.


> The ShK talks about the Sanhedrin announcing, not their knowing.

No, he does not.


> Making it about the
> informational content of the announcement is an interpolation.

On the contrary, that is what it says; introducing an announcement is 
*your* invention.

Just remember what it is we are discussing: an article that acknowledges 
the sources for *knowing* the molad, but attacks the practise of 
*announcing* it.  Citing the ShK doesn't help, because he is *not* 
explaining or thinking of any sort of announcement.   His source in 
Maseches Sofrim doesn't mention any announcement either.  My own 
explanation is that true, the announcement has no source, but what more 
efficient method exists to let people know?  It's obvious to me that 
this is sufficient to explain why the practice of announcing it arose. 
The gabbai got tired of everyone approaching him privately to ask, so he 
just made an announcement for everyone.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 2018 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper


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