Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 100

Thu, 06 Sep 2018

• 1. Re: Who is an considered an am ha'aretz (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Slichos without a minyan before midnight (M Cohen)
• 3. Re: Slichos without a minyan before midnight (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: Who is an considered an am ha'aretz (Micha Berger)
• 5. Judaism is not a religion (Professor L. Levine)
• 6. Re: Judaism is not a religion (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Judaism is not a religion (Zev Sero)
• 8. Administrivia: List Merge (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Slichos without a minyan before midnight (Micha Berger)
• 10. What is the basis of the requirement to wash ones hands upon awakening (Professor L. Levine)
• 11. Re: What is the basis of the requirement to wash ones hands upon awakening (Ben Waxman)
• 12. Nitzavim "The Seal of the Holy One is Truth" Talmud: Shabbos, 55a (Hanina b. Hama) (Cantor Wolberg)

At 04:40 PM 9/4/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Tue, Sep 04, 2018 at 12:32:17PM +0000, Professor L. Levine via 
>Avodah wrote:
>: The following is from pages 567 -- 568 of the sefer Rav Schwab on Chumash.
>
>:> Judaism without Torah is "just another religion," and is not in consonance
>:> with the will of G-d. Ritual is common to all religions; the unique
>:> quality of Yiddishkeit is the special relationship with Hashem that a
>:> Jew achieves only through Torah study.
>
>It would appear that R Schwab does not take "Judaism is not a religion" as
>literally as you do. After all, he describes it here as a religion, if
>one with a unique quality.

You have reached an incorrect conclusion regarding Rav Schwab's 
views  regarding RSRH's brilliant assertion that Judaism is not a 
religion,  which, by the way, Rav Hirsch makes in a number of places 
in his writings.

The sefer Rav Schwab on Chumash was written by one of his son's , 
Rabbi Myer J. Schwab.  In the Forward to the book it says, 
"Approximately forty percent of the divrei Torah in the Ma'ayin Beis 
Hasho'evah has been adapted and included in this sefer. Some of 
the  pieces have retained their original format, and some have been 
reformulated.  In a number of cases, the lessons are totally new, and 
others may differ from the Hebrew text, based upon the way I 
heard  and understood them directly from my father, zt"l."

The paragraph you quoted  is not taken directly from the writings of 
Rav Schwab, which is the case for the rest of what I posted.  Thus, 
it is faulty for you  to conclude that "It would appear that R Schwab 
does not take 'Judaism is not a religion' as literally as you do."

Furthermore,  I could assert logically that the statement Judaism 
without Torah is just another religion does not imply that Judaism 
with Torah is a religion!

I am certain that Rav Schwab agreed totally with RSRH's brilliant 
insight that Judaism is not a religion.

Indeed, it is most important that all of us realize that Judaism is 
not a religion and why this is so.

YL


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YL.. I personally do not understand where the custom to say the first
Slichos at night came from.  

The loshon of the pizmon "b'moztei menucha.." is certainly mashma that
slichos was said sat night
(but waiting till after chatzos bc of Eis Ratzon etc)





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At 08:09 AM 9/5/2018, M Cohen wrote:
>YL.. I personally do not understand where the custom to say the first
>Slichos at night came from.
>
>The loshon of the pizmon "b'moztei menucha.." is certainly mashma that
>slichos was said sat night

The minyan I davened at that started selichos at 5:10 am on Sunday 
morning changed the language and did not say b'moztei menucha.."   I 
do not recall what the shelach Tzebor said.  Do we know what the 
original Nusach was?  It may have been changed when people started to 
say the first selichos at night.

>(but waiting till after chatzos bc of Eis Ratzon etc)
>
>
>

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On Wed, Sep 05, 2018 at 08:51:46AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
:>:> Judaism without Torah is "just another religion," and is not in consonance
:>:> with the will of G-d. Ritual is common to all religions; the unique
:>:> quality of Yiddishkeit is the special relationship with Hashem that a
:>:> Jew achieves only through Torah study.

:> It would appear that R Schwab does not take "Judaism is not a religion" as
:> literally as you do. After all, he describes it here as a religion, if
:> one with a unique quality.

: You have reached an incorrect conclusion regarding Rav Schwab's
: views  regarding RSRH's brilliant assertion that Judaism is not a
: religion,  which, by the way, Rav Hirsch makes in a number of places
: in his writings.

I didn't deny RSRH writing as much. What I argued was that he was using
religion in a technical sense to make a point. For example RSRH wasn't
denying that Yahadus includes revealed teachings about how to be good
and have a positive relationship with deity.

Merriam-Webster, "religious" (1): "relating to or manifesting faithful
devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity". And "religion"
(1): "the state of a religious", "b (1) : the service and worship of
God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith
or observance".

Are you really arguing that Yahadus isn't identifiable with avodas Hashem?

I think RSRH was playing True Scottsman games with the word religion
when he crafted that aphorism. There are thinkers in every religion
claim their belief system is uniquely a lifestyle in a way that other
religions are just religions.

I took it along the same lines as Mensch-Israel, that calling Judaism
a "religion", is like when I write about how Yahadus can't be reduced
to frumkeit.

: The sefer Rav Schwab on Chumash was written by one of his son's ,
: Rabbi Myer J. Schwab....

Who, I presume, is a greater authority on his father's and on RSRH's
beliefs than either of us. Why should I take for granted your overly
literal reading of RSRH (which doesn't fit context in RSRH's writings),
over his?

: Furthermore,  I could assert logically that the statement Judaism
: without Torah is just another religion does not imply that Judaism
: with Torah is a religion!

Well, from those words, Judaism + Torah would be religion-plus.

: I am certain that Rav Schwab agreed totally with RSRH's brilliant
: insight that Judaism is not a religion.

I am sure he did. I just don't think it means what you've repeatedly
insisted it did. As I described above, denying the religious nature of
Yahadus denies basic features of what it is.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

At 10:30 AM 9/5/2018, Micha Berger wrote:

I am sure he did. I just don't think it means what you've repeatedly
insisted it did. As I described above, denying the religious nature of
Yahadus denies basic features of what it is.
From an earlier post of mine.  See the last paragraph where RSRH makes it
clear that Judaism is not a religion?  Is this not what I have repeatedly
insisted that RSRH says?


It may sound strange to some to assert that Judaism is not a religion,	but
this is precisely what Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch says in his commentary
on Shemos 6:7


 ???????????? ??????? ??? ?????, ?????????? ????? ?????????; ???????????, ???? ?????

?'  ?????_?, ?????????? ???????, ???????? ???????? ?????????.


and I will take you to Me for a people, and I will be to you a God; and ye
shall know that I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from under the
burdens of the Egyptians.


Rav Hirsch writes


??? ?????  These two short words are the first statement of Israel?s
destiny. They express the quality that makes Judaism so unique. It is
entirely inappropriate to refer to Judaism as ?the Jewish religion?; it is
thoughtless to define Judaism as a religion, to classify it with the other
religions, and then to be amazed that this ?religion? includes so many
elements that transcend the conventional bounds of ?religion.?

??? ?????: Israel is to be a people unto God.

This statement alone already makes it clear that Judaism, as established
by God, is not a religion at all. True, Judaism also embraces
elements generally characterized as ?religion,? but the term ?Judaism?
is completely different and infinitely broader. In ?religion,? God has
only temples, churches, priestly orders, congregations, etc. Nations, peoples,
are subject only to kings and governments; they are founded on
the concept of statehood, not on religion and God. In Judaism, however,
God founded not a church, but a nation; a whole national life is to be
fashioned by Him. Israel will be His people, not just a congregation of
believers.

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On Wed, Sep 05, 2018 at 02:56:50PM +0000, Professor L. Levine wrote:
: It may sound strange to some to assert that Judaism is not a religion,
: but this is precisely what Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch says in his
: commentary on Shemos 6:7

Not really. (And I can't believe we're doing this yet again.) What RSRH writes
is:
: [Li le'am:] These two short words are the first statement of Israel's
: destiny. They express the quality that makes Judaism so unique. It is
: entirely inappropriate to refer to Judaism as "the Jewish religion"; it is
: thoughtless to define Judaism as a religion, to classify it with the other
: religions, and then to be amazed that this "religion" includes so many
: elements that transcend the conventional bounds of "religion."

Notice, here he says that Judaism is not to be classified with other
religions, and that it transcends the bounds of "religion". As I tried
to show by quoting Merriam-Webster's definition of the word religion;
RSRH would have to agree that Judaism qualifies.

I argued (1) he was using the word in a specific way; and (2) to say
that Judaism is more than a religion. IOW, I have been claiming (for
around a decade now) that RSRH's words mean: Judaism's ritual system is
only part of what Judaism is, and not even the most central part.

What I wrote fits the words of the next paragraph perfectly:
: This statement alone already makes it clear that Judaism, as established
: by God, is not a religion at all. True, Judaism also embraces
: elements generally characterized as "religion," but the term "Judaism"
: is completely different and infinitely broader. In "religion," God has
: only temples, churches, priestly orders, congregations, etc. Nations, peoples,
: are subject only to kings and governments; they are founded on
: the concept of statehood, not on religion and God. In Judaism, however,
: God founded not a church, but a nation; a whole national life is to be
: fashioned by Him. Israel will be His people, not just a congregation of
: believers.

But are we not also a congregation of believers? Don't we still offer
HQBH our synagogues, kohanim and rabbanim, and as for congregations...
what does the "K" in KAJ stand for?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Education is not the filling of a bucket,
mi...@aishdas.org        but the lighting of a fire.
http://www.aishdas.org                - W.B. Yeats
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Given the idiosyncratic and narrow definition of "religion" being used 
for this purpose, is Islam a "religion"?


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On April 22, 2000 we split Avodah by topic, believing it was the only
way to maintain the membership of some of Avodah's members. Avodah
would continue carrying Torah-only discussion, and Areivim would carry
"everything else". In that way, people who only want to spend their time
discussing Torah would stay on by opting out of Areivim.

I don't think that decision is necessary anymore. First, people having
more tech-savy about how to manage their mail, and higher expectations
of how many emails are to be expected daily. Second, we now have social
media, suited to absorb a number of quick exhanges. Email lists are more
suited for discussions that require more time for thought, a chance to
revisit days-old questions, and the room to describe something at more
length, or with more nuance.

So, I don't get the sense that people still find Avodah / Areivim to be
an overwhelming flood of email.

I therefore want to fold Areivim back into Avodah. (Barring a member
uprising.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You cannot propel yourself forward
mi...@aishdas.org        by patting yourself on the back.
http://www.aishdas.org                   -Anonymous
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Wed, Sep 05, 2018 at 09:36:38AM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: The minyan I davened at that started selichos at 5:10 am on Sunday 
: morning changed the language and did not say b'moztei menucha.."   I 
: do not recall what the shelach Tzebor said.  Do we know what the 
: original Nusach was? ...

BeMotza'ei Menuchah is mentioned by the Leqet Yosher, a talmid of the Terumas
haDeshen. The Leqet Yosher was written between 1463 and 1488 CE by R'
Yosef bar Moshe. In general, considered about as definitively R' Moshe
Isserlein's thought at the Terumas haDeshen itself.

In any case, we've been saying the exact word "bemotza'ei menuchah"
since enough before 1488 that the LY already described it as ancient
and the author unknown.

(I found it in this machzor from Salzburg, 1794, "Seder haMechzor keMinhag
Ashkenazim"
<https://books.google.com/books?id=k51EAAAAcAAJ&;lpg=PP125&pg=PP125>)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The meaning of life is to find your gift.
mi...@aishdas.org        The purpose of life
http://www.aishdas.org   is to give it away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - Pablo Picasso

From yesterday's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. What is the basis of the requirement to wash ones hands upon awakening (negel vasser)?



A. There are three opinions:

  1.  According to Rosh, one must wash his hands prior to davening since
  one?s hands are constantly in motion and may have invariably touched
  areas of the body which are normally covered and may not be clean
  (Mishnah Berurah 4:1).
  2.  Rashba maintains that when one awakens from his nightly slumber it is
  as if he was created anew, and he must thank and praise Hashem. Before
  doing so, he must sanctify himself by washing his hands ? like the Kohen
  of old in the Bais Hamikdash who sanctifies himself by washing his hands
  before performing the avodah (Mishnah Berurah ibid.).
  3.  When one sleeps, a ru?ach ra?ah descends upon the body, and when he
  awakens, the ru?ach ra?ah remains on his hands, and is removed by the
  ritual of washing the hands three times (Bais Yosef O.C. 4 from Zohar and
  Mechaber 4:2 with Mishnah Berurah s.k. 8).


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I was recently at a class where the rav discussed Rav Ovadiah's approach 
to kabballah. This question was an example that the rav gave: ROY tz"l 
felt that there is no requirement to wash your hands immediately, just 
do it before tefilla.? In general ROY felt that one can be machmir to an 
opinion in the Zohar, but it isn't a requirement.
Ben

On 9/5/2018 9:15 PM, Professor L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
 > When one sleeps, a ru?ach ra?ah descends upon the body, and when he 
awakens, the ru?ach ra?ah remains on his hands, and is removed by the 
ritual of washing the hands three times (Bais Yosef O.C. 4 from Zohar 
and Mechaber 4:2 with Mishnah Berurah s.k. 8).

> "Atem nitzavim hayom"  (You are standing today). Rav Aharon of Karlin
> pointed out that ATEM is made of the letters of the word EMET, truth.
> This, he said, is the only way to achieve LIFNEI HASHEM, to stand
> before God.  
>  
> The Alshich points out that the Torah describes the People as "all of
> you, before God", and then proceeds to delineate different types of
> Jews. Before God, we are all the same. It is true that we assume
> diverse roles, and how we live our lives differentiates us from each
> other,  but the fact remains that we are all God's creations.
>  
> Fascinatingly, the Hebrew shoresh (root) "shuv" (shin, vav, bet)
> meaning "to turn or "to return" occurs seven times in the first ten
> verses of chapter 30 of this Torah portion (Tishrei is the seventh
> month). The High Holy Days are a time of "teshuvah" (also from the
> root "shuv"), repentance and returning to HaShem. Nitzavim is always
> read on the Shabbat before Rosh Hashanah.	How apropos also that
> during these holidays we strive to stand before Godin "truth."
>  
> The famous Posek (the L'vush) has discovered the Gematria of the first
> three words "Atem nitzavim hayyom" equals the value of the words
> "La'amod Li'selichot," (694)  which means "to get up for Selichot". 
>  
> I went one step further and if you can say there was one out of 10
> chances of coming up with this, you are correct.  The gematria of the
> above as I stated is 694. To get the final figure you would add 6+9+4
> which equals 19 and then you add 1+9 and get 10. The final figure is
> 1+0 equaling 1.  "Atem Nitzavim Hayom."  "You are standing today"
> before the ONE GOD.
>  
> 

Rav Aharon of Karlin pointed out that ATEM is made of the letters of the
word EMET, truth. This, he said, is the only was to achieve LIFNEI HASHEM,
to stand before God.
The Alshich points out that the Torah describes the People as "all of you,
before God", and then proceeds to delineate different types of Jews. Before
God, we are ALL the same. We are ALL of God's children despite our
differences. We view some people as more valuable than others. But we
really have no way to know how God views us. In His eyes, however, we are
all standing erect this day...


On any Rosh Hashanah which fell on Shabbat, R' Levi Yitzchak rose and said, "Lord of the
Universe, today You judge each person for the coming year, and grant him life or condemn him to
death. But, on this Rosh Hashanah You are forced by Your own Torah to write that You grant Your entire
people a good life in the coming year. After all, on Shabbat You have decreed that one cannot write. How
then, can You fulfill 'On Rosh Hashanah it is written down'? 

There is no way You can inscribe anyone in the Book of Death, because writing is forbidden on
Shabbat. On the other hand, You may certainly inscribe us in the Book of Life, for when there is piku'ah nefesh,
the prohibition against writing on Shabbat falls aside."

(A Touch of Wisdom, A Touch of Wit)
RABBI SHMUEL CHOUEKA
>  
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