Avodah Mailing List

Volume 36: Number 131

Sun, 25 Nov 2018

• 1. Re: Bereishit (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Bereishit (Zvi Lampel)

On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:30:07PM -0500, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote:
: > The Ramban talks about nature being a pattern in events, but those events
: > are /directly/ caused by HQBH.
: 
: 
: Where does Ramban say this? ...

This was already answered. The mistake people make in the more famous
Rambans that created the popular notion that he says everything is a
miracle is really the Ramban saying everything, even nature, it directly
from G-d.

:                             As I wrote, he repeats a number of times that
: each "Va-yehi  khein" in Breishis means that Hashem made that minhag
: permanent at maaseh breishis...

Which is not in contradicction to what I wrote. A minhag is a pattern
of behavior. Not a "thing". Teva isn't someTHING Hashem made that
behaves in certain ways and causes physical objects behave in certain
ways.

To the Ramban, the question of teva vs neis is whether the situation
calls for HQBH breaking His minhagim.

: Regardless of the mechanics of seichel haPoel, etc, I see no basis to
: create a machlokess between the Rambam and Raman on this point. Especially
: since he /says/ he is in agreement with the Rambam.

You want to avoid dealing with the concepts of hypostasis and of seikhel
hapo'el, but still thimk you can reach what the rishonim are talking
about?


:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 05:58:17 -0500, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 12:30:07PM -0500, Zvi Lampel via Avodah wrote:
> : > The Ramban talks about nature being a pattern in events, but those  
> events
> : > are /directly/ caused by HQBH.
> :
> :
> : Where does Ramban say this? ...
>
> This was already answered. The mistake people make in the more famous
> Rambans that created the popular notion that he says everything is a
> miracle is really the Ramban saying everything, even nature, is directly
> from G-d.

Ramban is not talking about everything. He is talking about the miracle of  
Hashem making Nature respond to human behavior (whereas otherwise he has  
the world follow the path of nature established at Creation). He does not  
mention whether Hashem does this directly or uses intermediaries.

>
> :                             As I wrote, he repeats a number of times  
> that
> : each "Va-yehi  khein" in Breishis means that Hashem made that minhag
> : permanent at maaseh breishis...
>
> Which is not in contradiction to what I wrote. A minhag is a pattern
> of behavior. Not a "thing". Teva isn't someTHING Hashem made that
> behaves in certain ways and causes physical objects behave in certain
> ways.

I really do not comprehend this distinction--if Hashem decreed that it  
should be the normal pattern of behavior of an apple tree to grow apples,  
how is this any different from saying ?Hashem created the behavior of an  
apple tree as a ??thing?? that makes it grow apples?)

Again, both RambaN and RambaM maintain that at Creation Hashem imbued the  
components ?of the world with their normal natures. Yes, Rambam  
additionally talks about the indirect mechanism being that Hashem first  
created things/forces that produced these natures, and ?RambaN does not.  
But I do not see RambaN making a point of disputing the RambaM on this.  
?He simply does not discuss it.

Maharal, in saying that Hashem did not use any agent such as nature in  
creating the world was apparently opposing Rambam, but they would be in  
agreement that Hashem was not using nature as we know it.

But even if RambaN also disagreed with RambaM, I do not see why you should  
frame the disagreement in terms of whether nature is a ??thing?? or not.  
RambaM uses no such language. ?Nature is as much of a ??thing?? to RambaN  
as it is to RambaM, and just as much not a ??thing?? ?to RambaM as to  
RambaN. The disagreement would be whether Hashem at Creation set up  
intermediary steps ?in creating the world?s components and their  
behaviors. According to both of them, at the end of the Creation period  
Hashem established what the normal behaviors (patterns) would thereon be,  
and up to then the nature of the world was not stabilized. Maharal, in  
saying that Hashem did not use any agent such as nature in creating the  
world was apparently opposing Rambam, but both agree that Hashem was not  
using nature as we know it.

RambaM cites Chazal that ?Hashem at Creation also imbued in the things of  
the world the potential for aberrant behaviors ??(miracles) to be  
triggered when Hashem so decrees. I do not see RambaN disagreeing, but  
even if he does, I do not see framing it in terms of a dispute over  
whether nature is a ??thing.?? It would be a dispute over whether the  
miraculous natures were imbued at Creation or first initiated at their  
enactment, and in view of the Chazal cited by RambaM, RambaN would have  
some explaining ?to do.

And of course, although the Rambam strongly objects to the idea that  
Hashem is constantly recreating the world, he also famously states that  
Hashem is constantly maintaining it, and that if He would remove His  
maintenance, the world would cease to exist.
?
And if one insists on inferring from RambaM?s words an issue of Nature  
being considered a ????thing??, as opposed to a mere normal pattern of  
behavior, consider this quote:?

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=38545&;st=&pgnum=14&hilite?

The One Who created it [the world] made its general properties as a kiyum  
gadol. ??...This is what it means when it says, ??I know that all that G-d  
will make, IT will be ?forever.??...The yesodos ... all these are kayamim  
l-olom. It is impossible to add upon or take away from them, for it says,  
??And G-d MADE [things] so that [people] will be in awe before Him, for  
...these [things] stand forever.

The above are the words of RambaN, in his Drasha on Kohelles. One could  
argue therefrom that he considers the general properties of the world as  
??things?? that are permanent. Or not.

> To the Ramban, the question of teva vs neis is whether the situation
> calls for HQBH breaking His minhagim.

To the Rambam, as well.
>
> : Regardless of the mechanics of seichel haPoel, etc, I see no basis to
> : create a machlokess between the Rambam and Raman on this point.  
> Especially
> : since he /says/ he is in agreement with the Rambam.
>
> You want to avoid dealing with the concepts of hypostasis and of seikhel
> hapo'el, but still think you can reach what the rishonim are talking
> about?

No.

You want to say Ramban was mistaken in saying, without qualification, he  
agreed with the Rambam?

Zvi Lampel

-- 
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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