Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 27

Wed, 10 Apr 2019

• 1. Re: Showering during shiva (Ari Kahn)
• 2. Re: Showering during shiva (Zev Sero)
• 3. Showering during shiva (Joseph Kaplan)
• 4. Lashon haRa in the Shulchan Aruch (Joseph Kaplan)
• 5. Downs and Minyan (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Lashon haRa in the Shulchan Aruch (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Downs and Minyan (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Lashon haRa in the Shulchan Aruch (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 9. Chad Gadya (Aryeh Frimer)
• 10. Re: Lashon haRa in the Shulchan Aruch (Zev Sero)
• 11. umdena(presumptions) and halakhic theory (Rich, Joel)

Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 11:04:14 -0400
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
> Does anyone know whether there's a general consensus among contemporary
> American rabbonim about showering during shiva, for the average American
> who is used to showering every day, or at the very least every other
> day?  Surely we are not less astheneses in this regard than Rabbon
> Gamliel.  During the 9 days most if not all American rabbonim seem to
> pasken this way, but do they do the same for shiva?

Regarding showering during the Shiva -- this post may be of interest
-- especially footnote 8 -- citing Rav Moshe Soloveitchik -- who
according to the Rav -- felt not such custom or law currently exists
<https://arikahn.blogspot.com/2012/07/is-it-permissible-to-shower-during-nine.html>

On 7/4/19 3:35 am, Ari Kahn via Avodah wrote:
> Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 11:04:14 -0400
> From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
>> Does anyone know whether there's a general consensus among contemporary
>> American rabbonim about showering during shiva, for the average American
>> who is used to showering every day, or at the very least every other
>> day?  Surely we are not less astheneses in this regard than Rabbon
>> Gamliel.  During the 9 days most if not all American rabbonim seem to
>> pasken this way, but do they do the same for shiva?


> Regarding showering during the Shiva -- this post may be of interest
> -- especially footnote 8 -- citing Rav Moshe Soloveitchik -- who
> according to the Rav -- felt not such custom or law currently exists
> <https://arikahn.blogspot.com/2012/07/is-it-permissible-to-shower-during-nine.html>

I don't see it.  He says there is currently no minhag not to bathe 
during *shloshim*, and therefore also the nine days.  I don't see where 
he says anything about shiva.  Everyone agrees that in principle bathing 
is forbidden during shiva -- except for an istenis.  The question is 
whether we all fall into that exception.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

I?ve been told by students of  the Rav, RYBS, that he was very adamant that
showering was permitted for that very reason. My rabbi, such a student, was
out of town when my wife started sitting shiva, and called to specifically
tell her she could shower. 
Joseph 

Sent from my iPhone

?It is often asked why no one tackled hilkhos shemiras halashon until
the CC. Or more pointedly, what changed in the early 20th cent that we
suddenly needed those laws codified.?

It may, indeed, be that something changed. Or possibly not and it may have
been simply that this was an issue that the CC cared deeply about and found
that there wasn?t as much halachic discussion about it as he thought there
should be. IOW, had the CC lived 200 years earlier, he might have done the
same thing then. There isn?t always an outside reason why something
interests individuals. 
Joseph

Sent from my iPhone

R Asher Weiss recently wrote a teshuvah about counting a man who has
Down or Autism toward a minyan. A translation, paraphrase or summary
appeared on the web site run by his talmidim
<https://en.tvunah.org/2019/04/05/minyan-and-down-syndrome>.

I am hoping it's a summary, because what is in the post is too
brief to be applied.

   Question:
   Do autistic men or men with down syndrome count for a minyan with
   regard to Tefilla or Zimun. Regarding Zimun is there any distinction
   between 3 or 10?

   Answer:
   There is a wide range within these conditions, from very severe
   dysfunction to very highly functioning relative to the illness. If he
   displays basic understanding and communicates with others, and he
   participates in the davening on a basic level, there would be room to
   include him in a minyan or zimun when necessary [i.e. if you can easily
   complete the minyan without him that would be preferable].

   See Shu"t Minchas Asher Vol. 2 Siman 48

For example... Shuby says Shema with me every morning. Or tries to... his
limitation isn't his ability to remember the words, but to articulate
them. Although he does follow my lead. "Vea'ahavta" "hava"... If he
can recognize that Adon Olam is being sung (despite not being the tune
he learned), he will try to since along. Not necessarily get the poem
right, but he'll try.

So Shuby does "displays basic understanding and communicates with others",
but is this what RAW means by "participates in the davening on a basic
level"?

Does anyone have Minchas Asher vol 2 and can look up #48 for me?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

On Sun, Apr 07, 2019 at 10:11:10PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote:
: It may, indeed, be that something changed. Or possibly not and it
: may have been simply that this was an issue that the CC cared deeply
: about and found that there wasn't as much halachic discussion about it
: as he thought there should be...

My question is less about the CC and more about the lack of anyone prior
to him.

R/Dr Chaim Soloveitchik wrote about the post-rupture textualism caused
by WWII. Kayadua to long timers here, I didn't fully buy into his model.
(Which is kind of scary, disagreeing with a genius on his home turf.)
After all, his own namesake was a textualist well before the Shoah. And
he himself writes about the contrast between the AhS and the MB, noting
that it's indicative of our textualism that the MB won out (in nearly
all Ashkenazi circles) over the AhS. But still, lemaaseh, that makes the
MB out to be a pre-rupture textualist. Even if as an indivual, and thus
not a counter-indication to his description of trends.

And I think R/DCS's "mimeticism" conflates two different things:
1- the imbibing of emotional landmarks, like growing up knowing the
feeling of Elul or the Erev Shabbos Jew.
2- norms of practice; like his textbook example of needing to study
what a kezayis is rather than just knowing what one's parents,
grandparents and everyone else around them eats.

And I think that the writing of the CC is a data point in all this. I'm
not sure how.

My instinct is that the reason why no one tackled the subject before the
CC is because no one felt a deep need to put rigorous halachic formalisms
(mimeticim type 2) around an ethical issue until then.

Or maybe it's an issue of value (mimeticism type 1) erosion. Not that
I think LH socially unaccaptable in too much of our history. But maybe
people knew enough to know that conversation about other people was
not their highest behavior. And when people started thinking
"but it's strue" is a good defense...

I think that it wasn't until the CC's era that we got to the point that
the only way to say X was wrong with any hope of reducing violations of it
was by putting it in SA-style black-letter-legal terms.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Brains to the lazy
mi...@aishdas.org        are like a torch to the blind --
http://www.aishdas.org   a useless burden.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                 - Bechinas haOlam

On 7/4/19 8:35 am, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> For example... Shuby says Shema with me every morning. Or tries to... his
> limitation isn't his ability to remember the words, but to articulate
> them.

I don't understand why this should be a criterion for counting in a 
minyan at all.  Surely even someone who is completely incapable of 
`akimas sefosayim still counts in a minyan to hear the things that he 
can't say.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 3:31 AM Micha Berger via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 07, 2019 at 10:11:10PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan via Avodah wrote:
> : It may, indeed, be that something changed. Or possibly not and it
> : may have been simply that this was an issue that the CC cared deeply
> : about and found that there wasn't as much halachic discussion about it
> : as he thought there should be...
>
> R' MB:

> My question is less about the CC and more about the lack of anyone prior
> to him.
>
<SNIP>

R' MB and R' JK put forward interesting arguments. A point occurred to me
but I have no idea if it's correct. When did it become common for people to
write halachah seforim on a single topic? It may just be too late at night,
but I can't think of a single example offhand. Is it possible that the CC's
pioneering look at Lashon Hara was not only that he pioneered looking at
it, but that he was a pioneer of what we would call today (in Lakewood, at
least), "specializing in a miktzo'a"?

KT,
MYG
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In Chad Gadya, we say Shelosha Avot and Arba (not Arba'a) Imahot because
Avot is male and Imahot is female. Yet the text reads Asara Dibraya and
shlosha Asar Midaya even though Dibra/Dibrot and Mida/Midot are female.
Has any one seen a discussion related to this Dikduk Problem? Are the
rules in Aramaic different?

Chag Sameach
Aryeh Frimer

--------------------------------------------------
Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 5290002, ISRAEL
E-mail (office): Aryeh.Fri...@biu.ac.il

On 10/4/19 12:08 am, Moshe Y. Gluck via Avodah wrote:
> A point occurred to me but I have no idea if it's correct. When did it 
> become common for people to write halachah seforim on a single topic? It 
> may just be too late at night, but I can't think of a single example 
> offhand.

Simlo Chadosho, Zivchei Tzedek, Gevuras Anoshim

Is Kesses Hasofer too modern for your question?

Does the Baal Hatanya's Hilchos Talmud Torah count, since it takes the 
form of a commentary on the relevant siman in SA?


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

My comments to a magid shiur:

While I can certainly construct a logic , it's hard to see why an umdena as
to people's awareness would not follow the actual facts on the ground
(although I know we have the same debate by maiz panav) rather than setting
the umdena in stone at an arbitrary point in time. (not to say that they
should change frequently)

I'm also not convinced that at some level following two different
"unrelated" psakim of two poskim does not run the risk of inconsistent
application (or tartei dsatrei). Especially if you take the position that
Hakachic intuition is based on their total knowledge of Torah.

Lhavdil It may be like machine learning today where the artificial
intelligence result is not necessarily explainable even to the original
programmers but rather based on all the data that the machines have scooped
up. Since you can't know exactly what they have intuited from the data you
may very well get contradictory results from two different machine systems

Thoughts?

KT
Joel Rich

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