Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 52

Fri, 28 Jun 2019

• 1. Re: Paying your workers on time using electronic payments (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: Paying your workers on time using electronic payments (Marty Bluke)
• 3. Darshening etim (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Hallel and Tfillin (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: Darshening etim (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: Hallel and Tfillin (Simon Montagu)
• 7. Re: Hallel and Tfillin (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Hallel and Tfillin (Rich, Joel)

.
R' Micha Berger asked:

> When you wire money, money goes from one account to another.
> The fact that said money is only represented by bits, rather
> than slips of paper, may not change anything. Even if the bill
> was backed by gold or silver, you could ask whether it counts
> as money; fiat currency more so. But data... why would it be
> any different than fiat currency?

I would suggest that there is one small difference between bytes of data
and fiat currency: Granted that fiat currency doesn't have any inherent
value, but it at least a tangible object. Being a tangible object, even if
it is a worthless one, it is still possible to pick it up physically and
perform some sort of kinyan on.

I'm not at all familiar with the halachos of performing kinyanim on
worthless objects, but I'd presume that it's at least a mashehu better than
the kinyanim one might perform on intangible bytes.

Next topic...

In several contexts, and with various phrasings, R' Micha Berger has
pointed out:

> credit card transfers include the power to claw back the money.

I would like to distinguish between two different kinds of credit card
transactions. One is the ordinary purchase of an object in a store. I
choose my object, somebody presses buttons and/or swipes a card, and the
sale is complete, with a debit from my account and a credit on theirs. My
ability to challenge the transaction later, and "claw my money back" is
totally irrelevant, because even if I am successful, it would be a separate
transaction. Every economic system provides for this situation, because we
must have a way to correct errors (whether accidental or deliberate). For
example, suppose I pay my employees promptly and with cash, with all the
hidurim. And then I realize that I overpaid one of them. The fact that I
can get the overpayment back does not invalidate case as a payment method!
And similarly, I can't see why "the power to claw back the money" would be
a problem with other payment methods.

But there is another, entirely different sort of credit card payment, and
it is fairly common at hotels, restaurants, and many other situations:
Instead of everything becoming a fait accompli at the point of sale, the
transaction is merely put on "hold", giving the merchant a few days to
adjust the amount up or down. And then, a few days later, that's when the
transaction is finalized. In this model, errors can be corrected before the
money actually enters the receiver's account, and it seems to me that this
is a serious problem for all sorts of Bal Talin situations, because the
recipient might not receive the money until days later than expected.

Next topic...

It seems to me that many of the questions being raised about credit cards
are not really new at all, and are easily compared to older questions
regarding payment by check. For example, one of my seforim points to a
difference between the common practice in Israel and in the US: In Israel,
many merchants will accept a third-party check as payment, and therefore a
paycheck can be considered as cash (in terms of the employer's mitzva to
pay with cash). But in the US such checks are accepted far more rarely, and
so it is not considered cash. (Personally, I'm not sure if I *ever* "spent"
a paycheck in this manner, except for some supermarkets that allowed it
*IF* I would pre-register and fill out a few forms and such beforehand.)

In contrast, it is very easy to use a bank card to purchase groceries, and
in fact some stores are trying to refuse cash. When I compare this fact to
what I wrote at the beginning about fiat money, I come to an interesting
conclusion: If the issue is making a kinyan, then physical fiat money is
possibly better than the intangible bytes that were credited to my card.
But if the issue is spendability, then a bank card is much better than a
check.
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[Email #1, sent on Tue, 25 Jun 2019 at 7:19am IDT. -micha]

On Tuesday, June 25, 2019, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> The difference between RMB and my positions would be whether it's possible
> to avoid the lavin and yet not fulfill the asei.

> RMBluke is saying yes -- if you pay him when expected, but the expectation
> isn't same-day. And thus he asks about a credit card payment that doesn't
> clear immediately. ("T+0" -- time + 0 days -- is how we say it in the
> trading industry.)

> I worked with the idea that beyomo is just an idiom for bizmano, and so
> the asei and the lav are both about paying him when you agreed. So, if
> he offers a credit card option and you use it, you would fulfil the asei.

R' Nissim Karelitz writes in Chut Shani that if the worker agrees to
defer payment or collect from a chenvani you are not over bal talin but
you are not mekayem the mitzva either as I suggested.

I saw that there is a machlokes of modern day poskim about post dated
checks whether you are mekayem the mitzva. The machlokes revolves around
whether does the agreement of the worker Relate to the mitzva as well. See
http://www.ladaat.info/Gilionot/20190504/[2347]????_????_??????.pdf the
section about post dated checks. R' Elyashiv seems to be holding like
R' Micha.


[Email #2, sent at 8:07am. -micha]

On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 7:19 AM Marty Bluke <marty.bl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I saw that there is a machlokes of modern day poskim  about post dated
> checks whether you are mekayem the mitzva. The machlokes revolves around
> whether does the agreement of the worker Relate to the mitzva as well. See
> http://www.ladaat.info/Gilionot/20190504/[2347]????_????_??????.pdf the
> section about post dated checks. R' Elyashiv seems to be holding like R'
> Micha.

After thinking about it and seeing R' Shternbuch (3:470 Teshuvos VHanagos)
I think they are saying something else. They also understand the mitzva of
Byomo literally that it has to be that day. However, they claim that the
special din by workers that you have to pay cash can be waived by the
worker. And therefore, if you pay with shaveh kesef ON THAT DAY you are
also yotze the mitzva. Based on that, they say that a post dated check is
considered shaveh kesef and you are yotze.

However, I don't think anyone is saying that you can be mekayem the mitzva
of byomo on a different day even if the worker agreed.

Shimon (or Nachshon) Haamsoni is quoted in the famous darshening and
undarshening of etim (e.g., Psachim 22b) saga. [For a somewhat different
version of the story, see Yerushalim Sotah Chapter 5, which is worthy of
its own analysis and reconciliation as is the fact that this is the only
context he?s mentioned in the Talmud].
The language of the story has his students questioning what will happen to
all his previous drashot and his answering he?ll get reward anyway. The
answer doesn?t seem to directly address the question. Perhaps they were
asking whether the halacha will change or will other drashot be found to
replace these?
Kt
Joel RichTHIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
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Thank you.

Why do we take off tfillin before Hallel on Rosh Chodesh but before mussaf (for those who wear tfillin) on Chol Hamoed?
Kt
Joel Rich
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On 26/6/19 6:06 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:

> The language of the story has his students questioning what will
> happen to all his previous drashot and his answering he?ll get reward
> anyway. The answer doesn?t seem to directly address the question.
> Perhaps they were asking whether the halacha will change or will
> other drashot be found to replace these?
I have always understood that they were asking whether his life's work 
was wasted, and he answered that it was not, because it was an honest 
attempt at determining the Torah's meaning, so it counts as talmud 
Torah, whereas had he spent his life trying to prove a mathematical 
theorem that turned out to be wrong it would indeed have been wasted.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 1:38 AM Rich, Joel via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> Why do we take off tfillin before Hallel on Rosh Chodesh but before mussaf
> (for those who wear tfillin) on Chol Hamoed?
>

I'm not sure who "we" are. I don't wear tefillin on Hol Hamoe`d, but I have
always seen tefillin taken off before mussaf on Rosh Hodesh. Are you saying
that those who wear tefillin on Hol Hamoe`d shake the lulav with their
tefillin on?
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On 26/6/19 6:05 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Why do we take off tfillin before Hallel on Rosh Chodesh but before
> mussaf (for those who wear tfillin) on Chol Hamoed?
You have that backwards.

As I understand it, for those who daven Nusach Ashkenaz there is no 
reason to remove tefillin at all on Rosh Chodesh.  People only do so 
because the Shulchan Aruch says to, but as the Taz points out this only 
applies to Nusach Sefarad/"Sfard", which says Keter/Kesser.  If you say 
Nekadesh (or are davening without a minyan) the tefillin can stay on.

(Which leads me to wonder how Italians, who say Keter in every tefillah, 
hold about the propriety of doing so in tefillin, and whether they too 
remove them on Rosh Chodesh, and if so why.)

On Chol Hamoed I assume that once you've started on the "yomtov" portion 
of the davening tefillin become a contradiction, so they come off.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 1:38 AM Rich, Joel via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org<mailto:avo...@lists.aishdas.org>> wrote:
Why do we take off tfillin before Hallel on Rosh Chodesh but before mussaf (for those who wear tfillin) on Chol Hamoed?

I'm not sure who "we" are. I don't wear tefillin on Hol Hamoe`d, but I have
always seen tefillin taken off before mussaf on Rosh Hodesh. Are you saying
that those who wear tefillin on Hol Hamoe`d shake the lulav with their
tefillin on?
=================================

Oops-I reversed them
KT
Joel Rich
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