Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 59

Tue, 23 Jul 2019

• 1. When did Moshe hit the rock? (Michael Poppers)
• 2. Re: Starbucks Redux (Akiva Miller)
• 3. Re: Hanging Tzitzis to fulfil all opinions -- can it be done? (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: ? Hanging Tzitzis to fulfil all opinions -- can it be done? (Danny Schoemann)
• 5. Re: Hanging Tzitzis to fulfil all opinions -- can it be done? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Rav Nosson Kamenetsky, zt?l (Danny Schoemann)
• 7. Re: Starbucks Redux (Micha Berger)
• 8. Bil'am - paid or unpaid? (Akiva Miller)
• 9. Re: Bil'am - paid or unpaid? (Simon Montagu)
• 10. Re: Bil'am - paid or unpaid? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Hanging Tzitzis to fulfil all opinions -- can it be done? (Micha Berger)
• 12. Eitzah Sheena Hogenet (Rich, Joel)

In Avodah V37n57, R'Sholom asked:
> Somebody was musing last shabbos: Aharon died on 1 Av.  Do we know when
Miriam passed away?  Do we know when Moshe hit the rock? <
OU Webpage <https://www.ou.org/judaism-101/bh-yom-yom/nissan/> (found via
Google'ing
<https://www.google.com/search?q=miriam+yahrzeit&;rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS851US851&oq=miriam+yahrzeit&aqs=chrome..69i57.4295j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8>)
says Miriam died 10 Nisan; the same set of Webpages
<https://www.ou.org/judaism-101/bh-yom-yom/> says MRAH hit the rock on 23
Iyyar.  An online copy of Seder Olam Rabba
<https://www.sefaria.org/Seder_Olam_Rabbah.9?vhe=Seder_Olam,_Warsaw_1904&;lang=bi>
says (unless I'm misunderstanding it) that Miriam died on R'Ch' Nisan (see
Ch. 9); I don't see any rock-hitting dates there or in an online copy of
Seder Olam Zutta
<https://www.sefaria.org/Seder_Olam_Zutta.1?vhe=Seder_Olam_Zuta,_Rabbi_M._Grossberg._London,_1910&;lang=bi>.
Looking forward to others' thoughts....
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.
R' Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer posted:

> Back to the barricades!
> The Star-K has launched a frontal assault on Starbucks.
> https://www.star-k.org/articles/kosher-lists/1709/starbucks/

As far as I can tell, the information on that Star-K page is exactly the
same as what they had posted a year ago, specifically July 20 2018. No new
information at all, except that the bottled drinks used to be in the top
section, and now they are in the bottom section.

There is a wonderful website at https://web.archive.org/ which archives
copies of websites, specifically to enable us to see what a webpage *used*
to say. If you go to that site, and paste in the link that RYGB gave us, it
will tell you that the page has been "Saved 84 times between November 7,
2015 and July 13, 2019.", and you can click to read any of them.

Akiva Miller
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.
R' Micha Berger wrote:

> OTOH, you don't need to worry about a measure for that minimum
> 2 godlin from the corner that is so large that it implies your
> tallis qatan isn't chayav in tzitzis. Because then, if you're
> too close to the corner, who cares -- the garment doesn't need
> kosher tzitzis anyway!

OT1H, if you are relying on shitos that "the garment doesn't need kosher
tzitzis anyway," then perhaps you should be careful not to wear it on
Shabbos outside the eruv! (For more details, Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchata
18:36.)

Akiva Miller
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R' Micha Berger wrote:

 <snip>
> OTOH, you don't need to worry about a measure for that minimum
> 2 godlin from the corner that is so large that it implies your tallis
> qatan isn't chayav in tzitzis. Because then, if you're too close to the
> corner, who cares -- the garment doesn't need kosher tzitzis anyway!

Not sure I understand this paragraph, but that's not why I'm responding.

You seem to have forgotten that the AhS in 16:5
(https://www.sefaria.org.il/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Orach_Chaim.16.5)
says that a Tallis Qatan doesn't require a minimum Shiur.

In which case it would require Kosher Tzitzis - what am I missing?

- Danny

On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 07:53:07PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: OT1H, if you are relying on shitos that "the garment doesn't need kosher
: tzitzis anyway," then perhaps you should be careful not to wear it on
: Shabbos outside the eruv! (For more details, Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchata
: 18:36.)

I'm back at the beginning of AhS, learning tzitzis again, thus the
question. And RYME also discusses this issue.

OC 13:2 <https://www.sefaria.org/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Orach_Chaim.13.2>
discusses a tallis that definitely needs tzitzis, and says it may be
worn on Shabbos. Even a silk tallis, even those who hold that only
wool or linen begadim require tzitzis deOraisa, the chiyuv derabbanan
is enough to be mevatel the tzitzis to the garment. If the tzitzis are
mishum safeiq or not at all, no. And then the AhS ends (tr. mine):
    According to this, very small talisos, which do not have the shiur,
    it would be assur to go out on Shabbos into a reshus harabbim
    with them.
    But the world are nohagim heter. Ve'ulai sevira lehu that since this
    beged doesn't need tzitzis at all, the tzitzis have no chashivus
    for this begd, and are batel.
    (And is is written in the the Be'er Heitev that in Teshuvas haRama
    siman 110 he is mefalpel in this matter, but I don't have it tachas
    yadi now to look into it.)

So, to explain minhag Yisrael, RYME is willing to say that for safeiq
chiyuv means the strings are too chashuv to be automatically batel,
but safeiq no chiyuv means they may not be batel as a matir for the
beged. But if there is no chiyuv at all, they would be batel like
decorative buttons -- the tassles have no chashivus.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
Author: Widen Your Tent      beyond measure
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Anonymous

> Please see the article at
> https://cross-currents.com/2019/06/09/rav-nosson-kamenetsky-ztl/

I only interacted with him once - at a Shiva house a few years ago. He
sat next to me and at one point asked me who somebody - on the other
side of the room - was. I had no idea.

He then asked other people, and - this is the fascinating part -
turned to me and informed me who this person was!

It fascinates me every time I think of it. The menschlichkeit.

- Danny

On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 04:01:42PM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer via Avodah wrote:
: The Star-K has launched a frontal assault on Starbucks.
: https://www.star-k.org/articles/kosher-lists/1709/starbucks/

As RAM already noted (but I already had more details in my draft of this
email, so I'm sending it anyway), what was essentially this page went
up some time between archive.org's scans of the page on May 18th and
Jul 20th 2018.
https://web.archive.org/web/diff/20180518224907/20180720085723/https://www.star-k.org/articles/kosher-lists/1709/starbucks

The only change from last year and last week is that they fixed the
placement of bottled drinks from the hot to the cold category.
https://web.archive.org/web/diff/20180720085723/20180925130654/https://www.star-k.org/articles/kosher-lists/1709/starbucks

As we concluded last year, they really say little about any change in
kashrus at Starbucks. Rather, they warn you that Starbucks turned off
their flow of information, so the star-K cannot make informed comments
anymore.

The changes in the charts between May and June 2018 reflects a loss of
detail and a more general "X" where before the list was itemized and
might have an "X" or two. Reflecting the increased uncertainty.

But they don't actually say there is a problem. This is totally like
the cRc which is saying certain regular practices there will treif up
you coffee. The star-K is saying they cannot verify a lack of problem,
and therefore they offer "safety" guidelines.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   isn't complete with being careful in the laws
Author: Widen Your Tent      of Passover. One must also be very careful in
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

.
Was Bil'am paid for his sincere and hard-fought -- but ultimately
unsuccessful -- attempts to curse us?

If we know the answer to the above, is it cited anywhere in Choshen
Mishpat? Imagine this case: An employer hires an architect to produce plans
for a building involving a specific construction style. The architect warns
the employer that City Hall might reject that style. The employer tells the
architect to work on it anyway. As feared, the city rejects the plans,
denies the building permits, and even confiscates the plans. The architect
tells the employer, "I warned you very clearly that this might happen. Pay
me anyway!" Who wins?

It's not explicit in the pesukim, but Rashi (24:14 and 25:1) cites the
Gemara (Sanhedrin 106a) that the business with the Moavi girls was Bil'am's
idea. This is entirely separate from the above, because the above contract
was very specifically to curse the Jews (Rashi on 22:4), and the whole
chidush of this plan is that it would work totally independently of
Bil'am's cursing abilities (or lack thereof). I can easily imagine how
Bil'am approached Balak: "You wanted me to curse them, and I warned you
that it might not work. I warned you not once but several times, and look
what happened. Now listen, cursing is not going to work. Forget about it.
But I have a different idea, which has much better odds." My question here
is: (1) Did he volunteer this idea to Balak for free, out of the goodness
of his antisemitic heart? (2) Or was he a pure mercenary, who (whether he
got paid for the attempted cursing or not) saw an opportunity for another
high-income contract?

Just wondering,
Akiva Miller
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On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 7:40 PM Akiva Miller via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> .
> Was Bil'am paid for his sincere and hard-fought -- but ultimately
> unsuccessful -- attempts to curse us?
>

I understand from Bemidbar 24:11 that Bil`am was not paid silver and gold
by Balak as expected. However, he was paid the "iron price" in 31:8.
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On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 07:50:34AM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
: Was Bil'am paid for his sincere and hard-fought -- but ultimately
: unsuccessful -- attempts to curse us?

I answered the wrong question, thinking you mean "paid" as in
sekhar va'onesh, not did Balaq pay him. But I invested so much time
on research, I'm keeping it in.

(I was wondering why you went to CM rather than a straight "divrei
haRav vedivrei hatalmid, divrei mi shom'im?" Took me a while to catch
up.)

But at least Bil'am was smart enough to say in advance that the
payment couldn't be conditional upon success. While also planting
in Balaq's head the ballpark of "melo veiso kesef vezahav". Clearly
experienced in Middle Eastern haggling technique. (See 22:18)

Now my non-answer, about whether HQBH made Bil'am pay for his sin.

Bil'am died in Yehoshua 13:22, during Reuvein's conquest of Sichon's
lands (which in turn included the land Sichon conqured from Moav).

The pasuq calls him a qoseim. Sanhedrin 106a asks why, wasn't he an
actual navi? R Yochanan says that Bil'am lost his nevu'ah and continued
on as pretending he still had it.

On the next amud, Rav says that this death involved seqilah, sereifah,
hereg AND cheneq.

According to Gittin 56b-57a, when Unkelos bar Kalonikos (where Kalonikos's
mom was Titus's sister) considers converting, he raises some evil
people from the dead (including his uncle) to ask them information
to help his decision. On 57a he asks Bil'am. Among the things Bil'am
answers is that he is spending eternity "beshikhvas zera roteches".

Rashi says this is middah keneged middah for his idea about Benos Moav.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
Author: Widen Your Tent      and it flies away.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                          - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 11:41:52AM +0300, Danny Schoemann via Avodah wrote:
: You seem to have forgotten that the AhS in 16:5
: (https://www.sefaria.org.il/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Orach_Chaim.16.5)
: says that a Tallis Qatan doesn't require a minimum Shiur.
: 
: In which case it would require Kosher Tzitzis - what am I missing?

Well, first, could be derabbanan.

Second, he doesn't go that far, as you may have seen in an email I
wrote on this thread after yours, because when it comes to hilkhos
Shabbos and hotza'ah, RYME doesn't consider the question that
closed.

In any case, I was saying lekhol hadei'os, just using the AhS's
presentation of those dei'os.

The question was how to thread the needle between the minimum
distance of almost 2 godelim from the hole you thread the tzitzis
to to the edges and the maximum of 3 gedolim if you want to be
yotzei everyone from the CI's version of the minimum to the Rambam's
version of the maximum.

Inherently we are looking at shitos other than RYME's. Otherwise, we
could just use his statement (OC 16:4) that the beged's 3/4 ammah is 9
vershok, yeilding a 53.3 ammah, from which we get a 2.2cm etzba.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 For a mitzvah is a lamp,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   And the Torah, its light.
Author: Widen Your Tent                      - based on Mishlei 6:2
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

Vayikra 25:17 states, "V'lo tonu ish et amito" ("And you shall not wrong
one man his fellow Jew"). Rashi comments that this includes onaat dvarim,
which includes giving inappropriate advice (Eitzah Sheena Hogenet). I
thought this specific application (Eitzah) was forbidden under lfnei Iver
(one practical difference would be what hatraah [warning] would be required
if you must warn on the specific prohibition). Any thoughts??

She-nir'eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu,
Joel Rich

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