Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 60

Mon, 29 Jul 2019

• 1. Conscience (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Aruch haShulchan on Lishmah (Micha Berger)
• 3. The Definition of G-d (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: The Definition of G-d (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: The Definition of G-d (Micha Berger)

From "Conscience"  - by  Pat Churchland

Conscience is a brain construct rooted in our neural circuitry, not a
theological entity thoughtfully parked in us by a divine being. It is not
infallible, even when honestly consulted. It develops over time and is
sensitive to approval and disapproval; it joins forces with reflection and
imagination and can be twisted by bad habits, bad company, and a zeitgeist
of narcissism. Not everyone develops a conscience (witness the
psychopaths), and sometimes conscience becomes the plaything of morbid
anxiety (as in scrupulants). The best we can do, given all this, is to aim
for understanding how an impartial spectator might judge us.
No good comes of insisting that unless conscience is infallible or religion
provides absolute rules, morality has nothing to anchor it and anything
goes. For one thing, such a claim is false. For another thing, we do have
something to anchor it-namely, our inherited neurobiology. In addition, we
have the traditions that are handed down from one generation to another
and, to some degree, tested by time and over varying conditions. We do have
institutions that embody much wisdom. Those are the anchors. Imperfect?
Yes, of course. Still, an imperfect foundation is better than a phony
foundation. What we don't want to do is fabricate a myth about infallible
conscience or divine laws, peddle it as fact, and then get caught out when
people come to realize, as they most assuredly will, that it was all made
up.
Thus a biological take on moral behavior and the conscience that guides it.

[Me-my simple question to Dr. Churchland's which she did not respond to

 Dear Dr. Churchland
I read your new book with great interest. While I would certainly love to discuss it with you I do have one question that I was hoping you might address.
On page 147 you note that conscience is a brain construct rooted in our
neural circuitry. My simple question is once one becomes aware of this
fact, why should he feel bound to act according to his conscience? If such
an individual had a ring of gyges, why would he choose not to use it to his
full benefit?


Lshitata - what would be the response?


She-nir'eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu (may we see the consolation of Jerusalem and its rebuilding speedily in our days ),
Joel Rich

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In AhS OC 1:13, RYME is in the middle of a list of "yesodei hadas". (The
list is incomplete; he refers you to the Rambam for the rest.) After
he lists olam haba, genehom, bi'as mashiach and techiyas hameisim, RYME
writes, "Similarly it is among the yesodei hadas that all the mitzvos
are to be performed not because the seikhel obligates it, like mitzvos
BAL"Chaveiro, but because HQBH commanded us to do this.

As two examples, he looks at Shabbos and Kibbud AvE, both of which he
says are sikhli -- it is logical to take a day off "lechazeiq kochosav",
and similar honoring one's parents shoudl be self evident. When these
two diberos are described in Shemos, before the Cheit haEigel, Hashem
simply tells us to do them. We were on the level of mal'akhim, of course
we would do what Hashem wants because He wants it. But in Devarim, after
the cheitm both diberos say "ka'asher tzivkha H' Elokekha". After the
eigel, we need to be instructed in proper motive.

I have a question about the AhS's "kegon mitzvos BALC". (See
<https://www.sefaria.org/Arukh_HaShulchan%2C_Orach_Chaim.1.13> for the
Hebrew to follow this.)

Is he saying, "all the mitzvos are to be performed not because the seikhel
obligates it, like mitzvos BAL"Chaveiro [are not performed bexause it
is reasonable to do so]".

Or is he saying, "all the mitzvos [maasios] are to be performed not
because the seikhel obligates it, like [the way one performs] mitzvos
BAL"Chaveiro".

The Rambam is famously understood as distinguishing between:
- mitzvos sikhlios, where we ARE supposed to internalize the values
  and then do them naturally because that's what we personally value,
  and between
- mitzvos shim'iyos where it is superior to really like pork but refrain
  because Hashem said so.

The AhS wants us to do every mitzvah in the second way.

And so my question becomes -- does he really mean every mitzvah, or is
he excluding at least most of mitzvos BALC?

As the Alter of Slabodka writes:
    "Veahavta lereiakha komakha." That you should love your peer the way
    you love yourself. You do not love yourself because it is a mitzvah,
    rather, a plain love. And that is how you should love your peer.

The pasuq, by saying kamokha, appears to exclude ahavas rei'im from the
notion of performing specifically because HQBH commanded.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Our greatest fear is not that we're inadequate,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   Our greatest fear is that we're powerful
Author: Widen Your Tent      beyond measure
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                      - Anonymous

Do Jews and Moslems believe in the same G-d, they just are in error about
many of His values and about some of the things He did? Or are any of
these differences about claims that are definitional of Who Hashem Is,
and therefore A-llah doesn't refer to the one True G-d?

My question is clearer when we talk about Christianity. Is the trinity
a misunderstanding about the Borei, or the depiction of a fictitious god?

In AhS OC 1:14, RYME quotes the 3rd pesichah to the Seifer haChinukh
about the 6 constant mitzvos. The first:
    To believe there there is one G-d in the world, Who created this
    great Creation. He was, Is and Will be until the end of time. He
    took us out from Mitzrayim and gave us the Torah.
    This is included in the verse of "I am H' your G-d who took
    you out of Mitzrayim."

Notice that for the purposes of the mitzvah of Emunah, believing in
Yetzias Mitzrayim and Matan Torah are not distint mitzvos from belief
in G-d. Rather, RYMS holds that if you do not believe Hashem did these
things, you believe in a different G-d.

And the phrasing of the first of the 10 Diberos does seem to back him
up.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 It's never too late
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   to become the person
Author: Widen Your Tent      you might have been.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                    - George Eliot

On 25/7/19 3:34 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Notice that for the purposes of the mitzvah of Emunah, believing in
> Yetzias Mitzrayim and Matan Torah are not distint mitzvos from belief
> in G-d. Rather, RYMS holds that if you do not believe Hashem did these
> things, you believe in a different G-d.

Or, you believe in the same G-d but are not fulfilling the mitzvah, 
because you don't believe what the Torah says about Him.  What if you do 
believe He did Yetzias Mitzrayim, but don't believe He defeated Sichon & 
Og?  Either you think that's a made-up story, or you think it happened 
by itself, or even that some other god did that.  None of these mean you 
don't believe in the same G-d.

Otherwise you end up saying that if I believe in a G-d Who intentionally 
made the leaf I'm looking at fall when and where it did, and you believe 
in an almost-identical G-d Who didn't make that decision, then we're 
somehow believing in different gods.  Or even if you do believe G-d 
makes each leaf fall, but you don't believe my claim that that specific 
leaf did fall, your line of reasoning might imply that we're believing 
in slightly different gods; in which case no two people really believe 
in the same G-d, which is either an absurd notion or a useless one, or both.

If I'm not making sense, ascribe it to not enough coffee.

-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5779 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 10:43:24AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: > Notice that for the purposes of the mitzvah of Emunah, believing in
: > Yetzias Mitzrayim and Matan Torah are not distint mitzvos from belief
: > in G-d. Rather, RYMS holds that if you do not believe Hashem did these
: > things, you believe in a different G-d.
: 
: Or, you believe in the same G-d but are not fulfilling the mitzvah, because
: you don't believe what the Torah says about Him...

But why aren't you fulfilling the mitzvah?

Either the mitzvah has one part or multiple parts. Meaning:
- The mitzvah has one part, to believe in HQBH, but without yetzi'as
  Mitzrayim and matan Torah the god you're believing in isn't him.(As
  I assumed. Or
- The mitzvah requires belief in a list of (at least) three things.

This second possiblity didn't cross my mind. Perhaps because the
Chinukh calls the mitzvah the Chinukh called "leha'amin Bashem", not
"leha'amin be-" list of items. AND< there are beliefs about HQBH that
I would have thought would more natually have been on such a list --
(2) shelo lehaamin lezulaso and (3) leyachado.

...
: Otherwise you end up saying that if I believe in a G-d Who intentionally
: made the leaf I'm looking at fall when and where it did, and you believe in
: an almost-identical G-d Who didn't make that decision, then we're somehow
: believing in different gods...

Or that these two events are unique, that they say something about Who
Hashem Is that the leaf does not.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The thought of happiness that comes from outside
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   the person, brings him sadness. But realizing
Author: Widen Your Tent      the value of one's will and the freedom brought
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    by uplifting its, brings great joy. - R' Kook


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