Avodah Mailing List

Volume 37: Number 96

Wed, 18 Dec 2019

• 1. Re: Fish and Meat eating (Alexander Seinfeld)
• 2. The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival (Prof. L. Levine)
• 3. A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog (Sholom Simon)
• 4. Re: A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: A Modern Orthodox Hedgehog (Harry Maryles)
• 6. thanksgiving (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Perceptions (Rich, Joel)

I agree with Joel, not so simple.

A few thoughts:

1. Rambam: Many people point out that the Rambam never mentions this
prohibition ? seems to be in the category of Talmudic medicine which we
are not meant to follow.

 
2. Speculation: maybe the danger of eating fish and meat together is
because fish have small bones that may be overlooked when eating meat
(which
only have big bones). This could lead to inadvertently swallowing small
fish bones, which could lead to choking.
 

3. Source: the actual Gemara states:
 
Talmud Bavli Pesachim 76b ? "A fish that was roasted with meat - Rava from
Parzika forbade eating it with milk [because the fish became fleishig].
Mar bar Rav Ashi said, even to eat it by itself is forbidden because it
bad for odor and davar acher."

Note that he?s not saying that the combination with meat is dangerous,
rather fish roasted with meat. (But the Shulchan Aruch for some reason
forbids any fish with any meat. It seems to me the clear intent of the
Gemara is to say don?t eat them when they were roasted together. Also, it
is quite interesting to me that Mar bar Rav Ashi puts the bad odor first -
if it?s really that dangerous, wouldn?t he mention it first? And if it was
so dangerous, why would no one before Mar bar Rav
Ashi (who is literally the last chronological voice in the Gemara) mention
it, and as I said, even he mentions it after odor?
 

4. Roasting/frying can produce acrylamides, a carcinogen:
https://www.fda.gov/food/chemicals/acrylamide-questions-and-answers
https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/acrylamide.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756514/

While the above sources say that meat and fish produce less acrylamides,
this study finds that fattier meat produces more:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931869/
 

5. Unknown: It appears to have never been tested whether or not roasting
meat and fish together significantly increases acrylamides or some other
harmful compound. How about increased risk for eczema? I?d be particularly
interested in the latter as it appears to be influenced by diet (affects
people more often who have food allergies), and since it is relatively
rare but can be unseemly, might explain why Mar bar Rav Ashi mentions it
only after bad odor, and why the Gemara seems to equate it with leprosy
(?davar acher?) which seems to be a general term for any leprosy-like
condition.

 
6. In conclusion, to me it sounds like a minor secondary worry from one
authority that one might speculate is allergy-related, that the Rambam
ignores but for some reason Rav Yoseph Caro decided to codify as an
outright prohibition, perhaps due to the way the Gemara concludes the
sugyia with it. But he does qualify his prohibition ? it?s due to danger;
therefore, now that we are not worried about the danger, it seems to me we
don?t have to worry about the danger, and our separation should be
understood ? and taught ? as merely customary.
 


Alexander Seinfeld


>On 10/12/19 10:45 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
>>The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven.
>>Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the
>>prohibition got extended so far
>
>It's a simple kal vachomer.  If simply baking them in the same oven can
>cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together.
>-------------------------
>I wouldn't say simple, perhaps it's the baking process that causes the
>danger
>Kt
>Joel rich

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For what I found to be a most interesting talk about Chanukah please go to
https://www.ou.org/holidays/chanukah/chanukah-historic-halachic-evolution/

[https://www.ou.org/holidays/files/iStock_000015010063_Small.jpg]<;https://www.ou.org/holidays/chanukah/chanukah-historic-halachic-evolution/>
The Historic and Halachic Evolution of Chanukah as a Festival - Jewish
Holidays - ou.org<https://www.ou.org/holidays/chanukah/chanukah-historic-halachic-evolution/>
Recorded at OU Israel?s L?Ayla Rosh Chodesh Kislev 5779 Women?s Event sponsored in memory of Mrs Linda Pruwer-Brachfeld, ??? ??? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ...
www.ou.org
This talk was given by Rabbi Dr. Yitzchak Breitowitz

https://www.ou.org/holidays/author/rabbi_yitzchak_breitowitzou-org/

YL
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R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus.

He starts off with:

Modern Orthodoxy is in need of a Hedgehog Concept.

Jim Collins, the best-selling business writer, coined this term almost two
decades ago when he looked at companies that made the leap from ?good? to
?great.? More often than not, these organizations had something at their
core that they passionately believed they did better than anyone else in
the world. And their success resulted in large measure from orienting the
organization?s ?resource engines? toward this singular goal.

While Collins didn?t extend his analysis to the realm of religion, a brief
glance at the sub-denominations that constitute contemporary Orthodoxy
suggest the same might well be true. That is, each of them seems to have an
authentic Torah value at their core, which they believe they do better than
anyone else in the world. The Yeshiva world has *talmud Torah*. The Hasidic
world has *dveykus*. The Dati Le-umi world had *yishuv Eretz Yisra?el*.
Chabad has *kiruv*. Though each community advocates full-fledged adherence
to all 613 *mitzvot*, a single value is elevated above the rest. And, more
often than not, the community?s schools and shuls, their curricula and
customs, their choices of where to live, who to marry and what professions
to seek are all oriented towards this particular goal. Like in the business
world, this focus becomes a point of pride for members of each community
and fuels a passion for their chosen way of life that often translates to
the next generation.

American Modern Orthodoxy has no Hedgehog.
He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO
intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim.

See
https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/
(part 1 of two parts).

I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article.

Kol tuv!

-- Sholom
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He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr L'Goyim.

See https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/a-modern-orthodox-hedgehog-for-a-postmodern-world/
(part 1 of two parts).

I'm very curious as to what other folks here think of this article.

Kol tuv!

-- Sholom

______________________________________________
I would agree that if MO?s goal is to maximize the number of adherents, a
simple, clear, black-and-white market value proposition (your hedgehog) is
probably the best marketing strategy. The challenge to me, as I once
responded to one of my boys? rabbeim?s question as to why I just didn?t put
on a black hat ,is that I just don?t think it?s what HKBH wants of me. So
perhaps living with nuance means MO will be smaller as each of us tries to
understand the ratzon hashem for ourselves (Each allocating our limited
resources to unlimited mitzvah demands) The real question to me is can we
develop a large enough community of believers or will we end up
predominately MO-lite. (See Conservative Jewry mid to late 29th century)
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On Dec 17, 2019, at 7:20 PM, Sholom Simon via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> R Gil Perl, Philadelphia, wrote a fascinating article in The Lehrhaus.
...
> He suggests that Torah U'Maddah is really only suitable for the MO
> intellectual elite, and then goes on to suggest a variation of Ohr
> L'Goyim.

Here are my thoughts:
http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2019/12/of-hedgehogs-and-ideology.html?m=1

HM
Sent from my iPhone, Shirley.

My response to a Thanksgiving post a bit back:

1. the opposition IMHO in the orthodox community is meta-hashkafic not
micro-halachic (in perhaps a positive way)-how much ger and how much
toshav?(mother's day? Veterans day?)

2.The treatment we've gotten (BTW it wasn't always so great but as
Churchill (or Abba Eban)said : The Americans will always do the right
thing... after they've exhausted all the alternatives.) is a secondary
effect of this being a medina shel chesed. We need to be thankful to HKB"H
for putting this less than perfect country in the historical position
of being a powerful force for good (and especially now work to keep it
as such)

KT from a dual citizen
Joel Rich

What percentage of people would like to know how they are really viewed
by others (vs. maintaining their false self-image)? Are we failing
(ethically? Halachically) by not telling folks if there are negative
perceptions about them out there?

KT
Joel Rich


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