Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 16

Wed, 04 Mar 2020

• 1. Re: Mistaken Minhagim (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel (Prof. Levine)
• 4. Re: Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel (mi...@aishdas.org)
• 5. Re: Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel (Rich, Joel)
• 6. Re: Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Cholov Akum and Cholov Yisroel (Micha Berger)
• 8. mezuzah checked (Rich, Joel)

On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 02:58:18PM -0500, Micha Berger wrote:
> Which gets us back to "mistaken minhagim"... We use minhag to mean
>     a- pesaqim specific to a community
>     b- practices following knowing they're lifnim mishuras hadin
>     c- ... anything else?

RMPoppers mentioned the example of East Europeans not wearing a tallis
until marriage.

Which I think has the probable origin of sheer finances. Easier to make it
a gift from the in-laws when everyone is breaking the bank anyway. Yes,
it can be justified after the fact -- there is no hypocracy implied
when saying Shema without a tallis on in a community where everyone has
a tallis qatan. And even meaning can be assigned to the practice based
on a semichut between tzitzis and marriage in Devarim 22. But that's
all post facto.

And that in turn reminded me that Purim costumes, for all the post-facto
meaning assigned to them did just happen to start in Italy, a country
where the local Notzrim were just celebrating Carnivale. Or milchig
on Shavuos coming from Germany, a country where the locals celebrate
Wittesmontag (White Monday) the Monday before the Notzri Pentacost.

So there is a (c) for my list

c- Common practices picked up by the masses for which the rabbinate
   later found ways to assign meaning. These aren't lifnim mishuras
   hadin (category a), but are -- after the explanations -- meaningful
   experiences in a Torah sense other than the purely halachic.

Anyone have a suggestion for (d)?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The mind is a wonderful organ
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   for justifying decisions
Author: Widen Your Tent      the heart already reached.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 04:25:30PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine forwarded a
link to Avodah from OU Kosher which said the following:
> A. This question should be an open and shut case. The Rama (YD 115:1)
> writes explicitly that if cholov akum was cooked in a pot, the pot
> must be kashered before it is re-used...

> are in agreement with Rav Moshe as far as the letter of the law, but
> nonetheless refrain from drinking unsupervised milk as a stringency. As
> such, there are the following positions:

> * Those who disagree with Rav Moshe and consider cholov akum to be
>   halachically prohibited treat food cooked in chalav akum equipment as
>   non-kosher, per the Rama quoted above.

> * On the other hand, those who follow Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient
>   position on commercial milk would...

> * A third group agrees with Rav Moshe Feinstein's lenient position
>   in principal, but nonetheless refrain from drinking cholov stam as a
>   chumrah...

This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s.
When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already
the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY.
And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras.

RMF was justifying existing practice, not creating a new pesaq. So we
are less relying on RMF's position as on Ramaz's, R Moshe Soloveitchik's,
as well as many rabbinim who time forgot (such as my own greatgrandfather
who was the rav of Boston 100 years ago).

But RMF's rationale is a major chiddush. He holds like the Chasam Sofer
that CY is a gezeira that requires re'iyah, but brings examples from
other dinim to to show that "re'iyah" doesn't always mean visual observation.
Knowing with a certain level of confidence can also qualify.

Wheres we have RHS's testimony that according to his father, R Melech
Schachter, most rabbanim assumed they were following the Peri Chadash
against the CS. That CY is a pesaq in the gemara involving the usual
rules of needing to ascertain that what you're eating is kosher. And
thus one doesn't need CY if the farmer has a strong disinsentive against
adulterating his milk.

Similarly, the CI (YD 41:4) assumes that gov't supervision is sufficient
because of the Peri Chadash's shitah. And R Yaakov Kanievsky (Qerayna
deIresa 2:123; and this is the CI's brother-in-law) said he used this
as a snif lehaqeil to allow powdered milk during wartime to the sick
who needed it. The CI held of CY, but to him the route to qulah in
exceptional cases was the PC's, not RMF's take on the CS.


Second, you needn't have to hold that CY is only a chumerah in order to
consume food from CY dishes. The Rama (YD 64:9) deals with a given fat
that some held was cheileve and others held was mutar. The Rama says
that the machmirim may eat off the dishes of the meiqilim. Similarly
(YD 115:1) about dishes of those who eat butter made by a non-Jews.
Emes leYaaqov (pg 308) uses these positions by the Rama to say one may
eat of the dishes of those who are meiqil on CY. Not because it's only
lifnim mishuras hadin to be concerned for CY at all.

So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes
is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or
that of another CY eater.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The meaning of life is to find your gift.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   The purpose of life
Author: Widen Your Tent      is to give it away.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                   - Pablo Picasso

At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote:
>This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s.
>When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already
>the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY.
>And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras.

Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state 
even for those who wanted to keep kosher properly.  For example,  I 
recall reading that something like 30% of the meat sold   in NY as 
kosher was actually  treif. People ate all sorts of candy based on 
looking at the ingredients listed on the label.

It was actually the advent of the OU that led to having proper 
kashrus standards..

YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20200301/80be5310/attachment-0001.html>

From: Prof. Levine <larry62...@optonline.net> 
Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2020 6:36 PM EST
> At 05:02 PM 3/1/2020, R Micha Berger wrote:
>> This analysis bothers me, because it forgets history before the 1950s.
>> When RMF even wrote his first teshuvah on the subject, it was already
>> the norm among most American shomerei kashrus not to be maqpid on CY.
>> And there was already precedent in other countries in other eras.

> Kashrus in America before the 1950s was in general in a sad state even for
> those who wanted to keep kosher properly...

But what does that have to do with *posqim* who arrived before Rav Moshe and
set the norm in the observant US to drink chalav Yisrael? What does the
later rise of OUKosher have to do with how R' Moshe Soloveitchik, RYBS, the
Ramaz or dozens of other talmidei chakhamim pasqened?

My observation wasn't about common practice, it was about how halakhah was
ruled by then-noted talmidei chakhamim. And it was the status quo RMF was
defending. He says as much. Claiming that we follow RMF is ahistorical,
since RMF himself says that drinking chalav hacompanies was preexisting
pesaq halakhah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Nearly all men can stand adversity,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but if you want to test a man's character,
Author: Widen Your Tent      give him power.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                    -Abraham Lincoln

People ate all sorts of candy based on looking at the ingredients listed on the label.

--------------------------------------
And in the alta heim they didn't eat from "unsupervised bakeries (or pubs?)"
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20200302/b7f10106/attachment-0001.html>

On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:

> following the Peri Chadash against the CS. 

Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when 
all he does is cite the Radvaz?


> So, the only case where one would have to be machmir with non-CY dishes
> is if someone who holds CY is iqar hadin treifed up his own dish. (Or
> that of another CY eater.)

Another scenario: If the keli belongs to a nochri or to a Jew who 
doesn't keep kosher, but you happen to know that the only treif it was 
used with was non-CY milk.  If you hold that non-CY milk is treif then 
the heter of the Rhinish Kelim wouldn't apply, because it wasn't treifed 
up in good faith.  But if you hold that it's actually kosher then 
there's no problem in the first place.  And if you're kind of in the 
middle you could use either the Radvaz or RMF, or perhaps both, as 
snifim lehakel.


-- 
Zev Sero            A prosperous and healthy 5780 to all
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On Mon, Mar 02, 2020 at 10:30:52AM -0500, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> On 1/3/20 5:02 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>> following the Peri Chadash against the CS.

> Side question: Why does everyone call it the Pri Chodosh's shita, when all
> he does is cite the Radvaz?

I don't know, but I went with the flow. I knew about the Radvaz from
your similar comments in earlier iterations. But I figured that had
I refer to the position as "shitas haRadvaz" it would confuse.

-Micha

From the OU:
Q. How often must a mezuzah be checked to make sure that it is still kosher, and how is the checking done?
A. Shulchan Aruch (YD 291:1) writes that a mezuzah that is placed on
private property, such as on one's home, must be checked twice in 7 years
(i.e., every 3? years). .........
Me- I suppose the OU initially laid out its vision for this series but ISTM
presenting this as a "halacha pesuka" without mention that some
contemporary poskim disagree, may be causing the laity not to ask questions
of their rav when a question would be appropriate.
Thoughts?

KT
Joel Rich


THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20200304/d88e2081/attachment.html>

------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodahareivim-membership-agreement/


You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org


When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."

A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/lists/avodah/avodah-acronyms
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)