Volume 38: Number 35
Fri, 15 May 2020
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 17:20:26 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Report: Orthodox Weddings to Resume with
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 03:17:17PM -0400, elazar teitz via Avodah wrote:
> The commemoration was not decreed because of the loss of lives during the
> plague; it was because of the major diminution of Torah knowledge which
> resulted from it. It was not because there were deaths, but because of who
> died and because of the effect on klal Yisraeil of their deaths...
I would have said it was because their deaths had insufficient effect
on the attitudes of kelal Yisrael, and therefore what we should have
gotten in the years of shock at the loss, we now have to spend time
on every year, working on kavod haberios incrementally.
Not really a disagreement, other than my shift of focus from loss of
Torah knowledge to a more middos oriented definition of loss of Torah.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 17:45:32 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Street Minyanim
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 12:40:39AM +0100, Chana Luntz wrote:
> <<What I find particularly fascinating about this issue is that it seems, at
> least to me, to highlight fundamental differences between ways of
> determining halacha...
THANKS!
Have to think more about this.
I have a similar thought about the Rambam and his original intent approach
to texts and the supermajority of rishonim who feel that the most important
meaning a text can have is how those who explain it are understood by those
who explain them as per those who ...
Which in turn comes from the Aristotelian's fixation on redemption through
unity with the Truth vs the others who see halakhah in legal interpretation
terms.
If I find time to explain myself, I'll do so on list. If not, this may
be enough to jog your memory of my disagreements on the topic with R'
Zvi Lampel, baal The Dynamics of Dispute (and neighbor).
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 33rd day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 4 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Hod sheb'Hod: LAG B'OMER - What is total
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF submission to truth, and what results?
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Message: 3
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 18:04:59 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Plants in Cities
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 03:48:55PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote to Areivim,
in a discussion of the lack of plants in a specific modern Israeli
urban area:
> But the Halacha does not allow trees in cities. It seems the Torah does not
> agree with the modern idea that greenery in cities is a good thing. It wants
> plants and crops separated from the cities by 1000 amot.
Can you source the prohibition / disrecommendation about having plants
within the city?
Because I would have taken the gemara (Eiruvin 51a, 57a) to be
specitically about putting the fields for farming away from the city
walls. The migrash, the 1,0o0 amos (plus corners) is not razed, it
is left in its natural green state and is called "noi ha'ir". It's EY
before and after galus, we can assume land left alone is lush. At least,
that is how I imagine it, and thus the migrash.
And then the town has ownership of another 1,000 ammah for farming.
But if the migrash is noi, why not plants in the town squares?
We also know from Y-mi Kelayim it was normal to have a small vegetable
garden; I didn't imagine anything that tiny would a far walk from
the home.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 33rd day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 4 weeks and 5 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Hod sheb'Hod: LAG B'OMER - What is total
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF submission to truth, and what results?
Go to top.
Message: 4
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 19:29:23 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Street Minyanim
On 12/5/20 4:11 pm, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
> But let's think a little deeper as to what is meant by shaat hadchak here:
>
> a) is the shaas hadchak that if we don't allow these porch or zoom
> minyanim, then there will not be minyanim anywhere in the world [...]
> with the loss of the benefits of tefilla b'tzibbur, such as HaShem
> accepting the tefilos? [...] surely just because we say it is a
> minyan doesn't mean that HaShem has to treat it as a minyan.[...[
> should we be substituting Halachically dubious minyanim instead, on
> the grounds this is a shaas hadchak?
>
> b) is the shaas hadchak that if we don't matir these minyanim, people will
> go off and form regular ones [...]
>
> c) is the shaas hadchak the mental health of the participants [...]
I think the only way we can understand "sh`as had'chak" is that we
*don't* consider these minyanim "halachically dubious". Rather, we hold
that me`ikar hadin they are acceptable minyanim, even if not ideal. When
we have alternatives we try to accommodate the stricter opinions as
well. But when we have no alternative we can't daven without a minyan
just because there are opinions that don't like it; bish`as had'chak we
fall back on what we believe is at the end of the day a valid opinion
that can be relied on. "Kedai hu lismoch alav bish`as had'chak."
--
Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy summer
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 5
From: Akiva Miller
Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 20:26:11 -0400
Subject: [Avodah] Tree in the City
.
On Areivim, in the thread "Drone Footage Shows Israel's Most Crowded City
Under Coronavirus Curfew", R' Zev Sero wrote:
> But the Halacha does not allow trees in cities. It seems the
> Torah does not agree with the modern idea that greenery in
> cities is a good thing. It wants plants and crops separated
> from the cities by 1000 amot.
I recall hearing this before, once upon a time. But I don't recall ever
seeing it inside. Can you suggest a source that applies to cities in
general?
Akiva Miller
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Message: 6
From: Rich, Joel
Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 05:17:58 +0000
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Ultra-Orthodox suffering in COVID-19 pandemic
[Micha:]
> But again, even in the Rambam, the response to suffering is to look for
> what to do teshuvah about. Not to think you do or can find a cause. The
> response is not about causality.
See Chulin 7b:
Rava seems to think some suffering is not announced above
R. Eleazar said: The blood of a bruise atones like the blood of
a burnt-offering. Raba added: It is only the blood of a second
bruising of the thumb of the right hand that atones, and then only
if it happened to one who was about to do a religious act.
KT and Be Well
Joel Rich
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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero
Date: Tue, 12 May 2020 22:22:04 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Plants in Cities Coronavirus Curfew
Re: Yerushalayim, see Hil' Beis Habechira 7:14.
Re any city, see Bava Basra 24b.
I'm pretty sure there's at least one more source but I can't remember where.
[Email #2.]
On 12/5/20 6:04 pm, Micha Berger wrote:
> We also know from Y-mi Kelayim it was normal to have a small vegetable
> garden; I didn't imagine anything that tiny would a far walk from
> the home.
It was probably part of a larger farm. The main farm grew wheat, and
there was a small vegetable patch on the side.
From the sources I gave earlier it would seem that their idea of urban
beauty just did not include greenery. Gardens and orchards were
pleasant places to spend ones time, but outside the city where they
belonged, not in the city.
One might also speculate that at least part of the idea of the migrash
was military -- you want a clear area around the city so that the enemy
can't sneak up on you, and so you have a clear field to target them with
projectile weapons.
--
Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy summer
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 8
From: Zev Sero
Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 09:13:28 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Tree in the City
On 12/5/20 8:26 pm, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> .
> On Areivim, in the thread "Drone Footage Shows Israel's Most Crowded
> City Under Coronavirus Curfew", R' Zev Sero wrote:
>
>> But the Halacha does not allow trees in cities.? It seems the
>> Torah does not agree with the modern idea that greenery in
>> cities is a good thing. It wants plants and crops separated
>> from the cities by 1000 amot.
> I recall hearing this before, once upon a time. But I don't recall ever
> seeing it inside. Can you suggest a source that applies to cities in
> general?
I only found a source for Yerushalayim, and for the area just outside
any city's walls. But the fact that trees are not allowed in
Yerushalayim (except for the rose garden on Har Habayis) would seem to
indicate that they did not share our sense of aesthetics in this regard.
--
Zev Sero Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy summer
z...@sero.name Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper
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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 13 May 2020 16:46:07 -0400
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Plants in Cities Coronavirus Curfew
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:22:04PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> Re: Yerushalayim, see Hil' Beis Habechira 7:14.
Which
1- Begins "Yerushayim mequdeshes mish'ar ha'arayos hammuqafos chomah",
so being on this list means it is NOT true of other cities.
2- Has pre-existing flower gardens from the days of "nevi'im rishonim"
as an exception. (Interesting turn of phrase, given how we group Tanakh,
But I don't know exactly when the Rambam means.)
The Kesef Mishnah says the source it BQ 82b, which explains why. So I
went there.
The problem with gardens, orchards and crop fields (Rambam: ganos,
padeisim, ve'einah nizr'as...) are the smell (sircha), which Rashi says
is from either weeds decaying after they were pulled or fertilizer.
> Re any city, see Bava Basra 24b.
Trees in particular, not plant in general.
Ula says because noy ha'ir, which Rashi back on the mishnah quotes and
says because it is pretty for a city to have free space in front of it.
Nothing about IN the city.
Seems to me that aside from Y-m there is nothing there against plants in
the city, especially if you use a bagging mower and a modern not-so-smelly
fertilizer. It is kind of rare to get an unpleasant odor coming up from
the median of Park Ave or Sederot Rothchild.
But the aesthetic judgment too, it's only about trees up against a city's
walls. Not even sure Rashi would expect this of unwalled cities.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
--
Micha Berger Today is the 34th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp 4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent Yesod sheb'Hod: How does submission result in
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF and maintain a stable relationship?
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Message: 10
From: Prof. L. Levine
Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 15:49:55 +0000
Subject: [Avodah] Making Up Missed Parshios
From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis
Q. When the pandemic ends and the shuls reopen, will we be required to make up all the parshiyos Hashavua (weekly Torah portions) that were missed?
A. Sefer Shaarei Efrayim (7:39) writes that if a minyan missed kriyas
Hatorah one Shabbos, due to a situation that was beyond their control, they
should make up the missed kriyas Hatorah the following Shabbos. However, if
several weeks were missed, they need only make up the reading for the
previous week. Nonetheless, if the congregation wants to read all the
missed parshiyos, they may do so. These rules apply if there was a minyan,
but if there was no minyan at all, most poskim hold there is no requirement
to make up any missed parshiyos. The Vilna Gaon has a different view and he
requires making up parshiyos even if there was no minyan. Rav Schachter
said that the Halacha follows the first opinion and shuls are not required
to make up the missed parshiyos, but he thought it would be proper for a
minyan of medakdikim to be strict.
I wonder if one will have to listen to all of the missed drashos.
YL
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