Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 47

Mon, 15 Jun 2020

• 1. Re: free public transport on Shabbos/Yomtov (Chana Luntz)
• 2. daat torah (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Re: Birchas HaShachar (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: free public transport on Shabbos/Yomtov (Zev Sero)
• 5. Arukh haShulchan and Halachic Process (Micha Berger)
• 6. Just walk away? (Rich, Joel)

RZS writes:.

<<This seems to address a situation in Eretz Yisrael where there are
settlements that are entirely Jewish, so that if the bus stops there it
is obviously intending to service the people of that settlement.
...
Obviously he does not mean that the Jew who wants to use it is the only
Jew living along the line, or that there is no Jewish community.
Because in that case how is there a shul for him to go to?
>>

Not necessarily.  If the bus stopped within walking distance of a shul, but
with the line being sufficiently far from the shul that no person on
weekdays would use one of its stops to access that shul, that would satisfy
both requirements, so long as the numbers going to shul were not
significant enough to cause a change in bus behaviour.
I think the analysis comes from the various discussions of using a light
lit by a non Jew.  If the light was lit for the Jew, then one is forbidden
to use it.  In this case, the driver and bus company are not running the
bus because they want to go back and forth along a particular route.  They
are doing it to service the paying customers (and get financially rewarded
as a result) or in this case for free because they are providing a service
to the citizens.   If they set up and run the line in part to service Jews
(eg they have a stop in Golders Green), the fact that they also do it for
non Jews all the rest of the way along the line may well be irrelevant.  If
an area is important enough to Jews to be surrounded by an eruv, it seems
likely that the bus company will have taken Jewish passengers into account
when determining how many buses to run and when, and where they stop.
That, it seems to me, would be enough for Rav Uzziel to prohibit (although
it is true that there may be some parts of the eruv that are only in it
because it was easier to put the various poles here rather than there, or
because there are other natural boundaries and so perhaps going to such
parts might be acceptable to Rav Uzziel).  Of course, if Jews generally do
not use transport on shabbat, and one individual does, then the bus company
will ignore his/her use.  But if a bunch of Jews flood onto the buses,
modern bus companies will put on more buses to deal with the crowds (and
especially when they are requiring people to maintain social distancing, if
there was an increase in passenger numbers, driven by Jews doing as you
suggest, that would mean running more buses on Saturdays, more like the
rest of the week).

<<Speaking of which, I think we discussed a while ago Rabbenu Yeshaya di
Trani's practice of using the gondolas in Venice on Shabbos, and the
discomfort many later rishonim felt about it, while nobody but Maharam
MeRutenberg was willing to say he was wrong.

But I've never understood how he did it without paying.  Does anyone
know?  Were the Venetian gondolas a public service, paid for by
municipal taxes?  Or was it perhaps a subscription service, and the
gondoliers recognized Rabbenu Yeshaya as a paid-up member?  I'm just
guessing here.>>

I don't know, but from what I understand, that was apparently the case of
the Rabbi in India (and/or Sweden, I have heard it told about both places)
who was supposed to use the train to get to shul on shabbas.  The Indians
being a tolerant lot, and respectful of religion, and the ticket collectors
at both ends knew him, knew who he was, and knew to let him through. I
don't know if either of these Rabbis are a form of Jewish myth though, or
really existed.

Regards

Chana
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In a discussion of who has daat torah, I commented:
There's a much more basic issue which is does any knowledge or exposure
outside of "pure Torah" pasul you or at least make your output more suspect
The purists argue that this is in fact the case because you can never be
sure where your results come from. They attacked Rambam strongly on this
point
Others (me?) argue a broader base of knowledge and analytic tools makes it more likely that you'll get the right answer.
Anyone know of any recent writings on the topic?
KT
Joel Rich

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On 8/6/20 4:31 pm, allan.engel--- via Avodah wrote:

>  Micha Berger wrote:

>> ?and each berakhah is said "when you do X, say Y".

 > And that is how the Rambam paskens.
 >
 > A nafka mina being, how can we say Shelo Asani Aved today?


Why not?  How is today different?  We could have been born at any time, 
and in any place.  Should we not be just as grateful today for not 
having been born avadim as we would have been if we had some avadim to 
compare ourselves to?


-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy summer
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On 9/6/20 7:36 pm, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
> I think the analysis comes from the various discussions of using a light 
> lit by a non Jew.? If the light was lit for the Jew, then one is 
> forbidden to use it. [...] ?? If they set up
> and run the line in part to service Jews (eg they have a stop in Golders 
> Green), the fact that they also do it for non Jews all the rest of the 
> way along the line may well be irrelevant.

But in the case of the light, if 51% of the people in the room are 
nochrim then the Jews are allowed to use it.  Since the majority of 
passengers on pretty much any bus line in chu"l are nochrim, it 
shouldn't matter if the line passes through some areas where there are a 
lot of Jews. Indeed it shouldn't even matter if it passes through some 
areas where the majority of potential passengers are Jews, since they're 
still a minority of the total population along the line.

I mean, once the bus is running along that route it has to have stops 
every so often, because that's what bus lines do.  It would be odd for 
the bus to go an excessive time without a stop just because it's passing 
through a Jewish area.  And those non-Jewish passengers who want to get 
off there would complain pretty loudly about it and call it racism.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy summer
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

Two observations were made by members of the AhS Yomi group on Facebook.

1- Ben Waxman noted that OC 6:7 uses the phrase "vekhein haminhag hapashut
ve'ein leshanos" and asked:

> I believe that this is the first time that he wrote this phrase.

> When did this idea (there is a common, widespread custom and no one
> should change it) begin?

> Did anyone ever indicate in a sefer that the opposite (there is a
> common, widespread custom but if people want to change it or do something
> different, that's OK) could be allowed?

I suggested something which no one challenged there. So, I am reposting
here to check my theory:

This isn't about "custom". This is about halakhah. Would repeating
the birkhos hashachar because one is chazan be a berakhah levatalah,
or should it be done? Different use of the word "minhag". This is the
mimetic tradition thing you hear so much about. RYME does this a lot.

As for how far back it goes. The Rambam in his haqdamah to the Yad
talks about being bound by the pesaq that was "nispatheit" -- compare
to the AhS's "hapashut" -- in your community even when the other one
is theoretically okay. I'm sure it's earlier, but that's what my meory
pulled up.

Isn't that what the AhS is doing here?

(And yes, I am also saying that "haminhag hapashut" doesn't mean
"the simple minhag" but rather "the practice that spread out" among
the people.)

2- In the hagah on OC 7:2, RYME writes about the Artzos haChaim's position
that while neither washing after using the facilities nor washing before
Minchah warrant making a berakhah, if one goes to the bathroom before
Minchah, one would make a berakhah on that washing.

Then he says:
        We do not teach others accordingly.
        But if one gadol want to do this himself -- ya'aseh [don't know
        if that's "can" or "should"], but not for hora'ah for others.
        And we have nothing but the words of the SA [which say:
        no berakhah].

At times he relies on accepted practice to be machria between shitos. Here
he invokes the authority of the SA. Not a mimetic argument, and not a
textual argument based on sevara / theory. Rather, a straight Accepted
Authority argument. Which might have a tinge of the "nispatheit" argument
to it, as who decided the SA has special authority if not consensus?

But what I found more interesting was this idea that a shitah is viable
for someone who knows what they're doing to choose NOT conform, but he
doesn't have the authority to make it the new norm.

My question is: When does this apply? Would the AhS agree with talmidei
haGra cataloging their rebbe's personal practices and making them his
norm? Notably, something that didn't happen in the Vilna Gaon's lifetime.
It seems to me the Gra followed the practices in ma'aseh rav as a "rotzeh
la'asos kein be'atzmo", and it's his talmidim who turned it into "lehoros
kein la'acheirim" as a way to stay connected to their late rebbe.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Imagine waking up tomorrow
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   with only the things
Author: Widen Your Tent      we thanked Hashem for today!
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

A Jew is being forced to violate a mitzvah by an idol worshiper, not for
the sake of his own pleasure   There are 10 Jews there and so it would be
bfarhesia( public in nature)  is there an obligation or a praiseworthy
action for one of them to walk away?
Kt
Joel rich
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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
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