Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 57

Wed, 15 Jul 2020

• 1. Re: electronics redux (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: avoiding the issue (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: electronics redux (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: FW: Yehareig velo ya'avor (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: FW: Yehareig velo ya'avor (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: avoiding the issue (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: avoiding the issue (Akiva Miller)
• 8. action or results? (Rich, Joel)
• 9. big 3 (Rich, Joel)

On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 04:40:03PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> I've posted a number of comments over the years relating to the delicate
> dance between poskim and their communities. IMHO (for a long while),
> as microelectronics become more embedded in society, the result will
> be micro-halachic justified allowances where shabbat is not compromised
> (even as the definition of compromised changes with time. (data points-
> r moshe-timeclocks, refrigerators...) Your thoughts?

I'm uncomfortable with your formulation, but I think I agree with
your point.

As microelectronics become more embedded in society, it's harder to
consider their use uvda dechol. So pesaqim ought change.

In RMF's case.... What changed over time was not whether a given fact was
uvda dechol. He assumed that use of a timer would pose mar'is ayin issues,
and that metzi'us changed. A close parallel, but not exactly the same.

And yes, it could well be the tzibbur who make that point known to
the posqim. (Especially today, when the gedolim we look to for pesaq
often are men who never left yeshiva life. As opposed to the previous
generations when we looked to the town's rav for pesaqim.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You cannot propel yourself forward
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   by patting yourself on the back.
Author: Widen Your Tent                      -Anonymous
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Sat, Jun 27, 2020 at 11:38:48PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> R' Micha Berger wrote:
>> But in general, there is an increasing reluctance to pasqen in
>> some circles. Whether Brisker chumeros or the MB's advice to
>> either play safe in some places or avoid the question in another.
>> So, we're seeing more and more of it.

> I spent a couple of minutes trying to think of examples of this phenomenon,
> and I ended up agreeing that this *seems* to be more common in hilchos
> brachos...

> However, in most other areas of halacha, it's not a choice of this or that.
> It's a question of issur and heter. (Or of chiyuv and not.) In such cases,
> "avoiding the situation" tends to be synonymous with "being machmir"....

I would agree for the "defy the question" pesaqim being more common
in hilkhos berakhos. But I don't see Brisker chumeros or baal nefesh
yachmir being more of a berakhah thing.

Using rules of safeiq rather than those of pesaq. We don't which which
to hold, so... And even then, not always; because there are such chumeros
in derabbanans, where the rule of safeiq would be lehaqeil.

My largely implied question was how to save this reluctance to pasqen
from accusations of lack of faith in the entire concept of pesaq and
deciding halakhah.

Nu, so for the Briskers, I takeh think they don't believe that a pesaq
settles the din anymore. As the Rambam put it, Rav Ashi veRavina sof
hora'ah.

But for the CC and the rest of us?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Good decisions come from experience;
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   Experience comes from bad decisions.
Author: Widen Your Tent                   - Djoha, from a Sepharadi fable
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 04:40:03PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> I've posted a number of comments over the years relating to the delicate
> dance between poskim and their communities. IMHO (for a long while),
> as microelectronics become more embedded in society, the result will
> be micro-halachic justified allowances where shabbat is not compromised
> (even as the definition of compromised changes with time. (data points-
> r moshe-timeclocks, refrigerators...) Your thoughts?

I'm uncomfortable with your formulation, but I think I agree with
your point.

As microelectronics become more embedded in society, it's harder to
consider their use uvda dechol. So pesaqim ought change.

In RMF's case.... What changed over time was not whether a given fact was
uvda dechol. He assumed that use of a timer would pose mar'is ayin issues,
and that metzi'us changed. A close parallel, but not exactly the same.

And yes, it could well be the tzibbur who make that point known to
the posqim. (Especially today, when the gedolim we look to for pesaq
often are men who never left yeshiva life. As opposed to the previous
generations when we looked to the town's rav for pesaqim.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You cannot propel yourself forward
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   by patting yourself on the back.
Author: Widen Your Tent                      -Anonymous
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 01:18:07PM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> I posted on this issue here and on another list:
>> If a Ben Noach [Noahide, i.e. non-Jew] is being forced to abrogate
>> one of his 7 mitzvot...

> I received this [from Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter]:
>> If you accept the authority of Rambam, this is black-letter law.  See Sefer
>> Shoftim, Hilkhoth Mlakhim UMilxmotheyhem, Chapter 10, Paragraph 2: "A Ben-Noax
>> who is compelled to violate one of his commandments is allowed to do so

> Thanks for the cite! If you check out the mishneh lmelech there

For those who didn't look, it's at:
https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?rtype=%D7%98%D7%A2%D7%A7%D7%A1%D7%98&;mfid=104611&rid=15005

>                                                                 he refers
> to the parshat drachim derech atarim (drasha #2) who makes exactly the
> argument I proposed as why a ben noach would be required to give up his
> life rather than kill someone.

But also says "debishfichus damim mitzvah haben-noach sheyeihareig ve'al
ya'avor". By making it about "mai chazis" it isn't about the 7 mitzvos
in general, or even the other two mitzvos that for Jews are yeihareig
ve'al ya'avor. Rather, because the only question is who dies, not the
comparative values are life vs obedience.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 When we are no longer able to change a situation
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   -- just think of an incurable disease such as
Author: Widen Your Tent      inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)

>> Thanks for the cite! If you check out the mishneh lmelech there
> 
> For those who didn't look, it's at:
> https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/rambam.aspx?rtype=%D7%98%D7%A2%D7%A7%D7%A1%D7%98&;mfid=104611&rid=15005
> 
>>                                                                  he refers
>> to the parshat drachim derech atarim (drasha #2) who makes exactly the
>> argument I proposed as why a ben noach would be required to give up his
>> life rather than kill someone.
> 
> But also says "debishfichus damim mitzvah haben-noach sheyeihareig ve'al
> ya'avor". By making it about "mai chazis" it isn't about the 7 mitzvos
> in general, or even the other two mitzvos that for Jews are yeihareig
> ve'al ya'avor. Rather, because the only question is who dies, not the
> comparative values are life vs obedience.

Thank you.  However if the Rambam agreed with this it's odd that he 
didn't say so.   And the svara against it seems fairly simple:  Yisrael 
are commanded in kiddush haShem; we're expected to sometimes put 
obedience ahead of our lives.  Therefore when considering for which 
mitzvos we must do so, the svara of "mai chazis" compels us to include 
this.  It wouldn't make sense to say that for AZ we must be moser 
nefesh, but for shfichas damim we needn't.

But for Bnei Noach the whole concept of mesirus nefesh doesn't exist. 
They are never expected to do that; we have an explicit pasuk that 
they're even allowed to serve AZ rather than die.  So how can we tell 
them to sacrifice themselves for mai chazis?  On the contrary, they will 
tell you exactly mai chazina -- this is my life and that is his.  To 
*me* my life is more important than his, just as I expect that to *him* 
his life is more important than mine.  Just as I would give my life to 
save my children, because theirs are more important to me than mine, so 
I will give your life to save mine, because mine is more important to me 
than yours.  It's only once the principle that there is something higher 
than survival is established that we can extend it with mai chazis.



-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy summer
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

On 14/7/20 2:25 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Nu, so for the Briskers, I takeh think they don't believe that a pesaq
> settles the din anymore. As the Rambam put it, Rav Ashi veRavina sof
> hora'ah.

Or, they believe in psak in principle, but not in their own ability to 
pasken, and they're not too sure about your ability either, or his or 
his or his.

But I think there's also a good helping of the gemara's statement that a 
baal nefesh doesn't eat meat on which a psak was required; as the 
proverb goes, "a shayla macht treif".   Only if the heter is found 
explicitly in the sources, so that no reasoning was needed can one eat 
the meat without any qualms.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy summer
z...@sero.name       Seek Jerusalem's peace; may all who love you prosper

.
R" Micha Berger wrote:

> Using rules of safeiq rather than those of pesaq. We don't
> which which to hold, so... And even then, not always; because
> there are such chumeros in derabbanans, where the rule of
> safeiq would be lehaqeil.

Safeiq "rather than" pesaq?? Can the two be differentiated? Isn't psak
*based* on safek, trying to figure out where Truth resides?

> My largely implied question was how to save this reluctance to
> pasqen from accusations of lack of faith in the entire concept
> of pesaq and deciding halakhah.

As I see it, it's not that we have a lack of *faith* in psak, but that
we're so confused about how it works. And especially, how it works nowadays
when there's no Sanhedrin.

To me, the classic case in bitul is bitul b'rov. Does the minority really
lose its identity to the point that all pieces can be eaten by a single
person at one time? Or is it only a procedural psak, such that we are
fearful for each item, and they must be shared among several people, or
eaten by one person at different times, etc etc.

And it carries through to psak too. Can I really ignore the minority
opinion? Without a Sanhedrin to actually discuss and vote, how can I be
sure that the other camp is wrong? And so, just as we "avoided the issue"
by having several people share the probably-kosher items, we also "avoid
the issue" in psak by finding a situation where we don't choose between the
several opinions.

Akiva Miller
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There are four identical quadruplets brothers, Robert, Simon, Larry and
Judah. Robert , Larry and Simon are all asymptomatic carriers of the corona
virus but Judah is not. The local law and rabbinic authorities require
wearing a mask when going out in public but none of them do. The four
brothers are not clearly identifiable, when seen, as orthodox Jews but are
so known by the public.
They all go outside to identical public events where their identities are
not known. Robert infects a number of people but he's never identified as
the source of the infection. Larry infects a number of people and is
identified as a source of infection in the media. Judah never infects
anybody and neither does Simon.
What shows up on each brothers' permanent record card in shamayim? Is it multidimensional?
KT
Joel Rich

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We learned that there are three mitzvot that a Jew is always required to
give up his life for rather than violate the transgressions of idol
worship, murder or forbidden sexual relations. Is there one overarching
theme that links these three transgressions that explains why these and not
others (e.g. shabbat, brit)?
KT
Joel Rich

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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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