Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 81

Mon, 05 Oct 2020

• 1. Re: What Will be with Simchas Torah? (Chana Luntz)
• 2. Re: What will be with Simchas Torah (Akiva Miller)
• 3. Re: What Will be with Simchas Torah? (Chana Luntz)
• 4. Re: What Will be with Simchas Torah? (Zev Sero)
• 5. Minhagim of the Ashkenaz Synagogue ("The Luach") (5781) (Prof. L. Levine)

RMB writes:

<<This is the crux of our difference in understanding. You're using a
general rule about "mishum simchah" in texts about hilkhos YT.>>

Not only a general rule about mishum simcha in texts about hilkhos YT, but
when used specifically about a set of festivals described in all of our
tefilot as "zman simchasainu".  Why do you think that particular accolade
was instituted davka about Sukkos/Simchas Torah, by the anshei Knesset
hagedola ? 

<<I'm using the se'if's first mention of simchah, or at least "semeichin",
as the context by which I understood all further mentions of simchah.>>

I understand that, but in the context of a discussion about what we do on
zman simchaseinu, which comprises a list of customs for that zman,
understanding that the use of semeichin in the first line as being what
drives the whole passage, including the language "and all is mishum simcha"
appears to be ignoring the wider context.  

...
> b) I have not seen (and don't expect to see) a distinction made 
> between an avel doing hakafos with the lulav, and an avel doing 
> hakafos on simchas Torah.  But if they have completely different 
> bases, then that discussion would need to be had.

<<OTOH, if simchas YT were the reason for all of the minhagim of Simchas
Torah, why aren't we dancing with the Torah on all chagim? Or at least on
Zeman Matan Toraseinu?>>

Because, as many meforshim point out, the psukim specifically speak of three
times the amount of simcha for Sukkos -  here it is from the midrash agada:

???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????, ?????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?' ?????
(???? ??) ???? ???? ???? ?????, ????? ????? ???? (???? ??), ????? ?? ???.
??? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ?????, ???? ?? ??????, ????? ?? ?????
?????, ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????, ????? ????? ??? ???
???' (????? ?? ??), ???? ??????? ?? ????, ?? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??
?????, ??? ??? ???? ????, ??? ????? ??? ??? ???, ??? ???? ?? ???? ???, ???
???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????, ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????:

"Why does it not say regarding Pesach simcha, and with Shavuos, there is
written [only] one simcha, ?and you shall be happy before Hashem Your G-d
(pasuk 11), and on Sukkos it is written three times simcha, that it is
written you shall be happy on your festival (pasuk 14), and you shall be
only happy [pasuk 15].  Because we are taught that on three periods in the
year the world is judged, on Pesach on the grain, on Shavuos on the fruit of
the tree, and on Rosh HaShana all the world passes before him like a flock
of sheep, as it says ?He who forms their hearts together etc? [Tehillim
33:15] and on Chag we are judged on the water, that the time of Pesach there
is a lack, that there is still what to do, and so it does not write simcha,
but on Shavuos one judgment has passed, and therefore we say one simcha, and
on Chag that has passed three judgments, Pesach, Shavuos and Rosh HaShana
there we say on it three simchos."

And here it is from the Da'as HaZakeinim:

??? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??
(??) ????? ?? ???. ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??????. ????? ????. ?? ???.
????? ???? ?' ????? ????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???
????? ???? ?' ?????. ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?? ?????
??????? ??? ????? ?????. ???? ??????? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ???
???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??????
????? ??????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???
???? ??? ??? ?????:

Da'at Zekenim m?ba?alei hatosfos deverim 16:15
And you shall be only happy: You find that there is written three times
simcha regarding chag hasukkos, v?samachta b?chagecha, ach sameach and
v?samachta lifnei Hashem Elokecha that is written in parshat emor al
hakohanim, that in connection with Shavuos there is not written except once,
v?samachta lifnei HaShem Elokecha. And in connection with Pesach it is not
written simcha at all because on Pesach they have still not gathered in the
grain, and not the fruit of the tree. And on Chag HaShavuos already they
have gathered in the grain, and there is one simcha, and not more, because
they still have not gathered in the fruit of the tree, or also the grain
inside the house, but on Chag HaSukkos they have gathered in the grain and
the fruit of the tree, and also all is grain is inside the house then the
simcha is complete therefore it is written regarding it three time simcha.


<<You see hakafos with the lulav as mishum simchah to begin with? "Anah H'
hoshia na?" I think I just don't understand what you're trying to say.>>

Not me - the meforshim - here for example is the Levush: - 
???? ???? ???? ???? ???
??????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???, ??????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????????
???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????. ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??????
?????. ????? ?????? ?????? ?' ?????, ??? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?'
????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????, ?? ?? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ????
???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?' ?????,
Levush Orech Chaim siman 660
We are accustomed to go around the bimah once every day and to put the sefer
torah on the bimah when we go around it in order to go around the sefer
torah because of simcha.  And one who does not have a lulav does not go
around like we have explained nearby. And on the seventh day we go around 7
times, in memory that they would go around the mizbeach with the lulav and
the aravah seven times because of simcha of the festival that is called the
time of simcha, and therefore we go around the bimah and the sefer torah is
on it, in place of the altar also this is because of simcha seven times.

...
> So I suppose it seems to me obvious that all the heterim the Rema 
> refers to cannot be because of the simcha of the siyum, especially as 
> the heterim were in place before the siyum was necessarily happening, 
> historically, which again seems to suggest that the one does not cause the
other.

<<Huh? The universality of finishing veZos haBerakhah on Shemini Atzeres,
Yom Tov sheini if you're in chu"l was WELL before minhagim about hakafos
with the Torah, never mind hakafos at night, giving all the men aliyos, and
then also the older boys, hakafos at night, leining at night (where
applicable)...>>

On what basis do you say that?  The Beis Yosef brings the Meharik as writing
in shoresh 9 (unaf 2) in the name of Rabbanu Hai Gaon that on the day of
Simchas Torah it is permitted to dance at the time that they say praises of
the torah because they are accustomed to permit because of honour of the
Torah since there is only in it because of a rabbinical decree.  

??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?
???? ???"? ????? ?"? ????? ?' (??? ?) ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????
???? ???? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???
??? ???? ????


And while I can't seem to find the full description when I went looking for
it, I am pretty sure I have seen sources about behaviour on Simchas Torah
from around the times of the Geonim, where the people were going around with
flaming torches. This was heavily disapproved of, as I recall, as
Halachically problematic, and dancing only was permitted - I can see that in
the Ritva (Chiddushei HaRitva Beitza 24a) it is mentioned briefly - "And so
we are accustomed in a few places with a torch that was lit in the synagogue
the night of Simchat Torah, and so writes the Ritva that this is not correct
because all the torch is one body".  And similarly in the Shita Mekubetzes -
Beitza 22a - "And so we are accustomed in a few places with a torch that was
lit in the synagogue on the night of simchas Torah".  But what I can't seem
to find at the moment is a vivid description I am sure I have read of the
scenes with juggling torches (and halachic disapproval), which then links
into Rav Hai Gaon's permission of dancing (only)!

The point being, that this is very old, and there were even more
Halachically difficult behaviours going on, so that the authorities clamped
down on torch juggling but allowed the dancing to continue (despite the
rabbinic ban on dancing on Yom Tov).  Wild scenes on the night of Simchas
Torah are thus very old, which is why my sense is that it is even older than
finishing the Torah on Simchas Torah, which I don't think become universal
until about the time of at least of the rishonim, if not the later rishonim.
I agree that the aliyos and layning seems to have been much newer, but the
mayhem, if you like, has very old antecedents, and roots in the hakafos
around the mitzbeach in the beis hamikdash (and quite likely, as the Levush
says, the sefer torah was taken out on Sukkos to be the central point of the
hakafos of the lulavim, and then on the last day, when there were no more
lulavim, but there was still supposed to be simcha, it extended to dancing
around just with the sifrei Torah, accompanied by these "praises".

<<Again, I must not be understanding what you're trying to say.>>

> I do see that in fact the Aruch HaShulchan seems to support you, as in 
> Orech Chaim siman 669 si'if 2 he says in the middle of the piece:  
> "And also we are accustomed that two are called up together and bless, 
> and even though it is not correct in any event because of the joy of 
> the siyum they do so ." - whereas I would have thought he should say 
> the joy of Yom Tov.  So the Aruch HaShulchan would seem to be supporting
your position.

<<Possibly the source of my first impression, via AhS Yomi.>>

Yes, I suspect so, but I think you are reading that back where it doesn't
belong.

> > You're assuming the Rama changes topics without telling us.
> 
> Not really.  Given that mishum simcha in the context of a Yom Tov is 
> logically understood to mean simchas yom tov...

<<Whenever people talk about "the ground", they mean on planet earth. Pretty
solid general rule.

But if someone starts a paragraph by saying "When Neal Armstrong left
footprints on the ground of the moon..." What would you assume "the ground"
refers to in the rest of the paragraph?>>

And I think that makes my point exactly.  They would almost certainly have
to keep qualifying it throughout as "the ground of the moon", because every
time they reverted back to "ground" people are likely to understand him as
having returned to earth.   If three sentences later they said "And Neil
Armstrong when he was back on the ground, said ... ", without qualifying, it
would be understood that was when he returned to earth, not when he had been
into the space ship or moon rover and then out again, unless that was very,
very clearly earmarked, as it is not the natural understanding.  You need
the words "and all this is because of the simcha of the siyum", not "and all
this is because of simcha" if you want say that the  simcha is Halachically
generated by the siyum.  And especially as, unlike coining "the ground of
the moon" (which of course, people wouldn't say, they would say the "surface
of the moon") the halachic obligation of simcha being generated by a siyum
is not so clear.  In a halachic work, the Rema needs to justify that a siyum
generates a halachic requirement of simcha (which he might be able to do, if
he actually held that way, by quoting the gemora about Abaye, but it does
need to be spelt out - about making a yom tov for the rabbis, and that this
"yom tov" reference indicates that just like simcha on a Torah mandated yom
tov, one is obligated in simcha on a siyum generated yom tov - although
probably this is at most rabbinic, as there is no pasuk quoted by Abaye).
But if he was going to do this, he needs to provide the halachic rationale,
rather than just say "and all of this is because of simcha" on a day when
there is a three times Torah mandated obligation of simcha (well, minhag
avosaynu b'yadenu, but on Shmini Atzeres/Simchas Torah in Israel it is three
times Torah mandated) which everybody reading would know.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Chag Sameach (tripled!)

Chana

.
I asked:
> Is this "completion of the Torah" necessarily referring to the
> public laining in shul each Shabbos morning? Can it possibly
> refer just as well to our private learning of the parshios, such
> as those who learned the parsha each week by reading it themselves
> from a chumash while the shuls were closed? Granted that such
> learning was not an actual chiyuv, . . .

Rav Elazar Teitz corrected me:

> It isn't? See OC 285:1.

For those of you who did not look up his reference, it refers to Shnayim
Mikra V'Echad Targum, which of course, is indeed an actual chiyuv.

I *could* justify my comment by saying that there's no chiyuv to read the
Chumash on Shabbos morning between Shacharis and Musaf if one didn't get to
minyan, whereas Shnayim Mikra applies all week long. But I won't say that.
:-)

Instead, I will reiterate and strengthen my first comment: Does anyone
explicitly say that this siyum is on the public laining? Perhaps this siyum
(Simchas Torah) is really on our accomplishment of having completed a full
cycle of Shnayim Mikra! And if so, then this year's Simchas Torah is as
genuine as ever, at least for those people who continued learning even when
the shuls were closed.

In fact, I'll note that when we have a regular Siyum, we generally have the
Mesayem learn his final piece, and that leads to the celebration. We might
begin by sitting down and making Hamotzi, but always, the learning precedes
the celebration. In contrast, on Simchas Torah we dance for hours, and then
we finally settle down to hear Chasan Torah. That's a siyum? But if the
siyum is actually on completing Shnayim Mikra, which should have happened
before leaving for shul, then the dancing is *after* finishing Vezos
Habracha, which makes much more sense.

This segues nicely to something I've been wanting to write for a few months
now...

Once upon a time, I did learn Shnayim Mikra V'Echad Targum regularly. But I
was young, and still in yeshiva, and didn't appreciate the Aramaic, and I
gave up on it. When the shuls closed this past spring, although (as I wrote
above) I felt no obligation to read the parsha, I *did* think it was a good
idea. For lack of minyan, I was davening Vasikin, and this made for a VERY
long Shabbos morning. So after I finished Shacharis, I pulled out my
favorite Chumash (or several of them), and read every single word aloud.

It was a life-changing experience.

Hearing the laining in shul, I often lose my place, or for whatever other
reason I get "stuck" on an interesting pasuk or section, and I spend a few
moments or minutes studying it. Of course, this inevitably leads to missing
other parts of the parsha. But this year, I saw things that I might never
have seen before. With no one else yet awake in the house, I had so much
time to leisurely study it as deeply as I chose to. Eventually, I turned to
Musaf, and quite often I ended up with a nice idea to share at lunch.

When the shuls reopened, that free time was no longer there, but I didn't
want to lose the chance to read every single word. And that's when I
decided to start Shnayim Mikra again, pacing myself through the week. The
schedule changed, but the content is still there - and now in triplicate!

I really didn't expect Onkelos to teach me any new insights into the
parsha, and indeed, my knowledge of Aramaic is so weak that most of his
ideas went way over my head. But reading this Rosetta Stone taught me a
surprising amount of Aramaic and Hebrew! In the very beginning I saw how
proficiency in Shnayim Mikra could help a person's Gemara skills. As time
went on, I noticed patterns of how certain Hebrew words got
consistently translated into Aramaic the same way. I'll share just one
example: I always presumed that the word "techum" (as in "techum Shabbos")
was Hebrew. But I saw at least a half-dozen times where Onkelos uses that
word as a translation of "gevul". My concordance gives close to 300 places
where "gevul" appears in Tanach, and not a single case of "techum". I am
led to conclude that they are not synonyms, but translations.

Another example that I noticed a few days ago: I should have figured this
out decades ago, from the word "yalfinan" ("we learn"), but it was not
until I saw Onkelos on Devarim 33:10 that it dawned on me that "ulpan" -
the place where olim learn Hebrew - is an Aramaic word!

Enough rambling. I have to go finish my sukkah. Chag Sameach, everyone!

Akiva Miller
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RZS writes:

<<Last year, when I was an avel, I was told that for Hoshanos I should not
go around at all, and should lend my arba minim to someone else who hasn't
got them, and have him go around in my place. (Or at least that's how I
understood it; it may be that lending the arba minim was simply a suggestion
to do someone a chesed, since I wasn't using them.)  For Simchas Torah I was
told that I could go around with the group, but should not hold a sefer
torah while doing so; after the hakafa I could take a sefer and dance with
it.>>

Interesting, did you ask (or could you ask) your posek for the basis of
this.  It does seem to me he is drawing something of a parallel.  You take a
lulav and Etrog and waive it, but you don't do hakafos with it, you can take
the sefer Torah, but not do hakafos with it. But when he said you could take
the sefer Torah after hakafos, was he suggesting that this was after they
had been put away in the ark?  Ie were you then taking them out again solely
for your personal dancing purposes?  Or was he talking about when the sifrei
Torah were on their way back to the ark, that they were allowed a divergence
to allow you to dance with them even though you had not been allowed to do
hakafos with them?

The reason generally given that an avel does not do hakafos with the lulav
and estrog is because it is a manifestation of extreme simcha.  Presumably
the reason not to hold the sefer Torah during hakafos was using the same
logic (otherwise why make a distinction vis a vis an avel).

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781

Chag Sameach

Chana

On 2/10/20 4:39 am, Chana Luntz via Avodah wrote:
> But when he said you could take
> the sefer Torah after hakafos, was he suggesting that this was after they
> had been put away in the ark?  Ie were you then taking them out again solely
> for your personal dancing purposes?

No, after each hakafa, when people are just dancing with the sifrei 
torah before the next hakafa, I could join in the dancing, and hold a 
sefer torah if I liked.  I could only not hold one during the hakafot 
themselves.  Or at least that's how I understood it.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

See

https://www.moreshesashkenaz.org/en/luach

Have a look at what it says about the observance of Simchas Torah.  If this
were followed in all shuls,  the risk of spreading the virus would be
greatly decreased.

Let's go back to the old time religion!

YL
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