Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 94

Wed, 11 Nov 2020

• 1. To Sojourn in the Land[1] (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Is there a mitzvah to wear tzitzis at night? (Chana Luntz)
• 3. Re: Is there a mitzvah to wear tzitzis at night? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Crown Heights Rav's Psak On Voting In Church Raises Storm (Micha Berger)
• 5. Entering a Conservative Synagogue was Crown Heights Rav's Psak On Voting In Church Raises Storm (Prof. Levine)
• 6. Re: The Holy Door and Lot (Brent Kaufman)
• 7. Re: The Holy Door and Lot (Micha Berger)
• 8. Streamlining Services: What Can we Learn from High Holidays 5781? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 9. The Tahom (mco...@touchlogic.com)
• 10. These States? (Rich, Joel)

 From 
<http://www.torahweb.org/torah/special/2020/rtwe_sojourn.html>http://www.torahweb.org/torah/special/2020/rtwe_sojourn.html 
This article was written by Rabbi Meyer Twersky

"'He sojourned there' - this teaches us that our 
patriarch Ya'akov intended only to sojourn, not 
settle, [in Egypt]." I.e., this teaches for all 
generations how Jews must conduct themselves in 
each and every exile, that they should know that 
they have not descended to the diaspora to 
settle, rather to sojourn until the redemption 
(literally, end of days), and they should view 
themselves as non-citizens. (Meshech Chochmah, Vayikra 26:44)

Civic loyalty to and responsibility for our 
country of residence notwithstanding, we 
recognize that the land outside of Eretz Yisrael 
is not ours. Our existential mindset and 
consciousness are that of an uprooted, displaced 
refugee whose real and rightful place is in the land of Israel.

We must also be constantly, acutely aware of the 
dangerous reality of anti-semitism, both latent 
and active. While the world is blessed with the 
devout of the nations (????? ????? ?????), it is 
also plagued by the scourge of anti-semites. We 
must not be ignorantly lulled into a naive, false 
sense of security based upon our own very 
limited, mostly congenial, personal experience 
(for which we are very grateful to the United 
States). Instead we must be wisely, cautiously 
realistic, based upon our extensive, bloody, 
national-historical experience. Anti-semitism is 
very real, and easily ignited or excited.

[As an aside, our generation, at times, lacks 
adequate historical consciousness. But that is a subject for another time.]

II

How did all this translate this year in terms of politicking?

See the above URL for more.

Mayer E. Twersky is an Orthodox rabbi and one of 
the roshei yeshiva at the Rabbi Isaac Elchanan 
Theological Seminary of Yeshiva University. He 
holds the Leib Merkin Distinguished Professorial 
Chair in Talmud and Jewish Philosophy. 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayer_Twersky>Wikipedia. 
He is a grandson of Rabby J B. Soloveichik.

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RLL writes:

<<>From Today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis

Q. Is there a mitzvah to wear tzitzis at night?

A. Regarding tzitzis, the Torah states, ?U?re?isem oso?, you shall see it
(Bamidbar 15:39). The Gemara (Menachos 43a) derives from this verse that a
nighttime garment is exempt from the mitzvah of tzitzis. Because the mitzvah
does not apply to nighttime garments, tzitzis is a mitzvas asei she?ha?zman
grama (a time-bound mitzvah), from which women are exempt.

The meaning of a nighttime garment is the subject of a disagreement among
Rishonim. The Rambam (Hilchos Tzitzis 3:7) writes that it refers to any
garment worn at night. According to the Rambam, the mitzvah of tzitzis
applies only during the day; any garment worn at night is exempt from the
mitzvah of tzitzis. The Rosh (Menachos ? Tzitzis 1) disagrees. He quotes
Rabbeinu Tam who maintains that a nighttime garment is intended to be worn
at night, such as pajamas. These types of garments are exempt from the
mitzvah of tzitzis, even if worn during the daytime. Conversely, a garment
that is intended to be worn during the day is obligated in tzitzis, even if
it is worn at night.>>

This has always seemed a bit strange to me - or at least, the Rosh and the
Rabbanu Tam's explanation seemed strange, and my query seems strengthened by
the (fairly) recently discovered view of the Imre Shefer, which would seem
to be the basis for the Ramban's view that women are obligated in Sfirat
HaOmer.

That is:  According to the Rambam, the ruling that tzitzit is a mitzvat aseh
shehazman grama seems straightforward.  The fall of night causes the mitzvah
to be inapplicable, so the time clearly causes the mitzvah, just as the time
of Rosh HaShana causes the mitzvah of shofar to be applicable, and the rest
of the year it is not, in the case of tzitzit the time of day causes the
mitzvah to be applicable, and hence it is a mitzvah aseh shehazman grama.

But according to the Rosh/Rabbanu Tam - it is not day or night that causes
the mitzvah to be applicable, it is the type of garment.  And yes, the type
of garment is determined as a night garment or a day garment, but
fundamentally it is not the *time* that causes the applicability of the
mitzvah, but the nature of the garment.

And the Imre Shefer says - " My father [R. Moshe ben R. David Chalawa
(Maharam Chalawa) ca. 1290-1370] writes that sefirat  haomer women are
obligated, and this is his language in his chiddushim: every positive
mitzvah dependent upon time men are obligated and women are exempt, that is
to say all that depend on time, that is not every time is fit for it, and
even a small interruption, that we learn from tefillin that the mitzvah is
only interrupted at night that in any event this is a mitzvah dependent upon
time and therefore we learn that women are exempt from kriat shema because
it is dependent upon time, that is that they fixed for it a time in one's
lying down and one's getting up a time of lying down and a time of getting
up, and so with all that are dependent upon time.  And the Ramban writes
that sfirat haomer women are obligated in.  And this is the essence, as they
are not excluded except when time causes and sefirat haomer is not caused by
time but by the action that is the bringing of the [korban] omer.  And even
though the omer is dependent upon time in any event the counting is not
dependent upon time but on the action of its bringing and it is not caused
by time.  And to what is the matter similar, to women who are obligated in
blessing after a meal, that behold Shabbat is a time that causes to eat as
it is forbidden to fast, and since there is to the eating a time, the
blessing on the eating could be considered to be dependent upon time, and it
would be found that the blessing after eating is dependent upon time, ."

So, according to the Imre Shefer and the Ramban - were it true as the
Rabbanu Tam and the Rosh say that it is determined by the type of garment,
would it not also be true that women would be obligated in tzitzit as it is
not a mitzvah directly dependent upon time, but directly dependent upon the
type of garment, which is merely classified by time?  That would seem to
make it even more remote from time than sfirat haomer.  (Of course the
Rambam disagrees that women are obligated in sfirat haomer, but then he
would seem to hold that sefirat haomer is directly caused by the time, and
so again would be consistent).

So, given that we posken in the Shulchan Aruch that tzitzit is a mitzvah
aseh shehazman grama (following the Rambam) as the Halacha Yomis stated
(further following Rabbi Shimon and against, inter alia, Rav Yehuda - see
Menachot 43a-b) should it not follow that we should posken like the Rambam
against Rabbanu Tam and the Rosh on the subject of whether there is mitzvah
to wear tzitzis on a day garment at night?

Regards

Chana

On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 02:27:22PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> From Today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis

> Q. Is there a mitzvah to wear tzitzis at night?

> The meaning of a nighttime garment is the subject of a disagreement
> among Rishonim. The Rambam (Hilchos Tzitzis 3:7) writes that it refers
> to any garment worn at night. According to the Rambam, the mitzvah of
> tzitzis applies only during the day; any garment worn at night is exempt
> from the mitzvah of tzitzis. The Rosh (Menachos ? Tzitzis 1) disagrees. He
> quotes Rabbeinu Tam who maintains that a nighttime garment is intended
> to be worn at night, such as pajamas...

> Shulchan Aruch (OC 18:1) cites both opinions and leaves the question
> unresolved. Therefore, Rema writes that one only recites the beracha on
> tzitzis if the garment is intended for daytime wear and is put on during
> the daytime.

So does the AhS, he has an 8 se'if discussion, if you're interested to
see more.

RYMEpstein (se'if 2) also believes that the machloqes might also date
back to one between the Sifri and the Y-mi on the one side, and the
Bavli on the other.

And unsurprisingly to those who remember RRW's posts about Prof.s Agus
and Ta-Shema's theories about the origin of the Ashk / Seph split... The
Rosh aligns with the Israeli sources, and the Rambam -- with the Bavli.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 For those with faith there are no questions.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   For those who lack faith there are no answers.
Author: Widen Your Tent                        - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Fri, Nov 06, 2020 at 01:32:58PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine forwarded to
Areivim from
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1916361
: 
> Residents of Crown Heights are facing a halachic issue on Tuesday as
> their voting booth station is in a local church and although residents
> made efforts to have the location changed, they were unable to do so,
> COL reported.

> Rav Yosef Braun, the Rav of Crown Heights, paskened this week that voting
> in a church is only permissible when the actual voting booth is in a room
> that does not serve as the prayer room since it is then apparent to all
> that the purpose of entering the room is not for prayer. Furthermore,
> it is only permissible if there is no other option.

> "One may enter a church to vote, provided it is not in the sanctuary,
> but rather they specifically set up a room for this purpose, e.g. the
> basement or a different room, since everyone knows that you are there
> to vote and not for anything else," Rav Braun stated.

And then RYL added:
> See the above URL for more.

> At one time my voting place was in a Reform Temple. I wonder what the
> psak about such a place is.

Since this is a halachic question, I'm moving it here.

When the Torah Center of Hillcrest was under construction, Rav Dovid
Lifshitz zt"l told R Zvi Flaum that it was okay to hold services in
the local C-nagogue's library, as long as we entered and left through
a different door than the C congregation and could hang a sign for our
shul by that door. Because then, it would be clear we weren't going in
order to participate in C services.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Imagine waking up tomorrow
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   with only the things
Author: Widen Your Tent      we thanked Hashem for today!
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

At 05:24 PM 11/9/2020, R. Micha  wrote:
>Since this is a halachic question, I'm moving it here.
>
>When the Torah Center of Hillcrest was under construction, Rav Dovid
>Lifshitz zt"l told R Zvi Flaum that it was okay to hold services in
>the local C-nagogue's library, as long as we entered and left through
>a different door than the C congregation and could hang a sign for our
>shul by that door. Because then, it would be clear we weren't going in
>order to participate in C services.

Many years ago I was the featured speaker at a Chabad Shabbos that 
took place in a Conservative Synagogue.   After I had accepted, I 
began to question the wisdom of what I had agreed to do. After all, 
almost all of those who would come to hear me speak would drive to 
the synagogue on Shabbos.

I spoke with Rav Shimon Schwab,  Z"TL about this.  He told me that 
although Reb Moshe allowed observant Jews to teach in Conservative 
Hebrew Schools,  he personally was against this.  He said that he 
held that one was not allowed to enter a Conservative Synagogue OT to 
do anything that assisted a Conservative Synagogue in any 
manner.   Rev Schwab was, of course, a follower of Rav Hirsch's 
Austritt policy.

When I told him it was really too late for me to back out of my 
commitment, he told me I could go,  but not to do it again.   I 
followed his advice.

YL

> "There is no indication that the girls (or for that matter the men) were to
> be killed, or harmed in any way other than by being used as an object of
> giluy arayos."

Are you at all familiar with what happens to a women when she is gang raped
by a small gang of about ten rough men? Ever worked in a city emergency
room on a weekend night? Ever even watch Law and Order: SVU?

If the woman remains alive it is by a thin margin. In our scenario there
are thousands of angry men. The stakes are a given.


[Email #2. -micha]

> "You're exagerating how different halakhah's position is than modern
> attitudes. Or more accurately, how different the halakhah's position
> ended up being when it was true that "darkah bekakh" and girls grew up
> knowing it was likely they'd be raped at some point,"

But I am not exaggerating the mitzius of this type of rape. Yet your
statement about rape being a matter of course for every girl and how they
handled it is completely made up. No one can therefore assume that it's
like getting a simple mugging to be taken in stride as a common thing for
all.

I'm not sure that I even referred to Halacha in my question. I don't know
who would in that scenario. There was no choice about giving the girls. Lot
made that an option all by himself. Nor do I have reason to believe that
Lot would be concerned with halachic responsa on the issue. He, single
handedly, created the entire problem, from putting three strangers at risk,
endangering his family and daughters, and would be responsible for all harm
that came from the evening's events. He lacked self-awareness and sound
judgment.


-- 
*- "When life gives you lemons, shut up and eat your lemons."*

On Mon, Nov 09, 2020 at 05:58:52PM -0600, Brent Kaufman wrote:
>> "You're exagerating how different halakhah's position is than modern
>> attitudes. Or more accurately, how different the halakhah's position
>> ended up being when it was true that "darkah bekakh" and girls grew up
>> knowing it was likely they'd be raped at some point,"

> But I am not exaggerating the mitzius of this type of rape...

I was replying to Zev, so "You're" refers to him, not you. And I didn't
talk about exaggerating the metzius, but the halakhah's posiiton. The
fact that halakhah treats rape as a kind of assault actually fits current
knowledge about rapists' motivation. And doesn't the least bit imply (as
Zev tried to) that halakhah doesn't think it's a big thing. Assault is
a big thing.


>                                                             Yet your
> statement about rape being a matter of course for every girl and how they
> handled it is completely made up. No one can therefore assume that it's
> like getting a simple mugging to be taken in stride as a common thing for
> all.

You made a strawman with "a matter of course for every girl"... What I
wrote was that is was common enough to be less shocking than it is to
people in developed countries today. Often enough that girls end up not
growing up thinking their bodies were inviolate.

Slaves and serf women were routinely abused by their masters. In Rome,
waitresses, serving girls, entertainers were all considered available.
Only citizens in good standing could even be "raped" as the law defined
it.

Soldiers also were not expected to be able to restrain themselves.


This is the second time in as many conversations (the first being equating
yam with seabed) that you were overly sure that something you didn't know
was just something I must have made up. This time, though, the topic
isn't lashon haqodesh or any other aspect of Torah, but history. So I
don't want to clutter this list with the conversation. You can google
historical information.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Mussar is like oil put in water,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   eventually it will rise to the top.
Author: Widen Your Tent                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF
> handled it is completely made up. No one can therefore assume that it's
> like getting a simple mugging to be taken in stride as a common thing for
> all.
> 
> I'm not sure that I even referred to Halacha in my question. I don't know
> who would in that scenario. There was no choice about giving the girls. Lot
> made that an option all by himself. Nor do I have reason to believe that
> Lot would be concerned with halachic responsa on the issue. He, single
> handedly, created the entire problem, from putting three strangers at risk,
> endangering his family and daughters, and would be responsible for all harm
> that came from the evening's events. He lacked self-awareness and sound
> judgment.
> 
> 
> -- 
> *- "When life gives you lemons, shut up and eat your lemons."*

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Mussar is like oil put in water,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   eventually it will rise to the top.
Author: Widen Your Tent                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

From

https://thelehrhaus.com/commentary/streamlining-services-what-can-we-learn-from-high-holidays-5781/

    Streamlining Services: What Can we Learn from High Holidays 5781? |
    The Lehrhaus

    [1] See also Responsa Zekher Yehosef (Orah Hayyim Vol. 4, no. 213),
    which is cited in support for the position of omiting piyyutim. [2]
    It is intriguing to note that an abridged Rosh Hashanah service
    for Rabbi Akiva Eiger would still take five hours. [3] Translation
    is made accessible by Rabbi Dr. Edward Reichman in his article,
    "From Cholera to Coronavirus: Recurring Pandemics, Recurring...

    My goal is not to dictate policy to any particular synagogue. Rather,
    my hope is to provide halakhic sources in the efforts of generating
    a healthy discussion about how to make services efficacious and
    efficient. Unfortunately, the conversation about streamlining services
    is many times stunted. It is easy to halt such a conversation if we
    imagine that the only people who care about the timing of services
    are the people slipping out to kiddush club or the nudniks holding
    audible conversations in the back of the sanctuary. Because of
    this perception, many genuine synagogue-goers who come primarily
    to pray are beset with guilt for wishing that services be run more
    expeditiously. My goal is to show that there is little reason to
    feel ashamed, as many of our great rabbinic leaders shared a similar
    sentiment.

See the above URL for the entire rather long article.

In the interest of making clear where I am personally coming from, I have
to say that I find much of the davening on RH and YK uninteresting and
boring. Almost all of the piyut is kind of meaningless to me, even with
the English translation. I am also not a fan of Chazonis, no matter how
great a particular Chazon may be. These are my prejudices.


[Email #2. -micha]

From: Zalman Alpert <zalmanalpert...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 11:44 AM
> I have to admit I find it interesting how you pick and choose from
> Rav Hirsch

> Rabbi Hirsch and FFM were and remain strong believers in piyyut KAJ ROSH
> service commences at about 6:30 and concludes about 2at earliest

> As you know liturgy was a strong point of R Hirsch,choir decorum etc
> and it remains so although its in the decline

> The structure of davening in Frankfurt are not in any manner essential
> to TIDE. Hirsch was fighting the reformers, so he insisted that nothing
> be taken from the davening. Hirsch spoke every week on Shabbos for a long
> time. This was fine in his time, but it is not for most people today.

I ran a Shabbos morning davening in the YI of Ave J that began at
7:15 and ended before 9 almost every week. No drasha, no long singing,
just davening. This is the style for today.

Fyi -  an interesting possibility/evidence for the source of the lower
waters

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/the-hunt-for-earth-s-deep-hidden-oceans

The Rama frequently use the term bmidinot eilu(these states) to describe
where a practice exists. Much less frequently the term aratzot(lands) is
used in the same context (actually only one I could find - see Y"D 39:18).
Any ideas as to the (halachic) difference and why just in this one case?
KT
Joel Rich


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