Avodah Mailing List

Volume 38: Number 108

Sat, 19 Dec 2020

• 1. Re: Chocolate Production (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Special Places (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: min hatorah (Micha Berger)
• 4. Existing practice driving halacha (Ben Bradley)
• 5. RSRH on Chanukah - from the JO in 1964 (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 6. Neo-Chasidus Guitar Hallel in the Spotlight (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: RSRH on Chanukah - from the JO in 1964 (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: Neo-Chasidus Guitar Hallel in the Spotlight (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Neo-Chasidus Guitar Hallel in the Spotlight (Micha Berger)
• 10. Meanings of a Verse Are Unique to That Verse (Zvi Lampel)
• 11. Orthodox Union Guidance Regarding Coronavirus (Prof. Levine)

On Fri, Dec 11, 2020 at 01:16:50PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> Please see
> https://oukosher.org/content/uploads/2020/12/Daf-Hakashrus-Chanukah-2020.pdf
> for an article by the OU regarding this topic.

The OU does not raise questions of child slavery and the cruelty routinely
imposed on the slaves who pick our chocolate. And whether it's mutar to
support the industry, if our trade is so small as to have no measurable
effect so it isn't even mesayeia, etc...

-Micha

PS: There is chalav hacompanies Fair Trade chocolate coins. But I didn't
find pareve or CY.

On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 09:12:32PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> If I disagree with the idea that something can be inherently qadosh, then
> what about things that are inherently large, or inherently blue, or
> inherently sweet? ...

See the MC. Yeah, he sees them as different. Qedushah isn't a property
of an object without a relationship to a human.

Maybe you can say an object isn't inherently blue without a human eye
with our eyes and perception mechanisms. A single frequency of photon
or various combinations of light frequencies can all create the same
experience of blue. Maybe you can make a mashal for the MC's take on
qedushah with that.


[Email #2. -micha]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 08:15:27AM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:
> How does the MC's clal apply to kedusha of of time and of person? I
> presume it would need to apply there unless you posit that kedusha has
> a completely different meaning in those contexts.

> But kedushas Shabbos seems very clearly independant of human input....

Qedushah of person is the one qedushah he *does* allow. People bring
qedushah into the world.

Yeah, I don't know what the MC says / would say about Shabbos. Also
would like to find his treatment of qedushas Yisrael.

Can anyone help?

A lichtikn un freilechn Chanukah!
-Micha

On Wed, Dec 02, 2020 at 04:39:46AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> The Gemara chulin 17b asks "Minayin lbdikat sakin min hatorah"(from
> where do we know that a shechita knife must be checked) and answers
> with a pasuk from navi. I couldn't find another gemara that asks this
> question and answers with a pasuk not from the Torah. Thoughts?

Me neither. But if you want to include Yerushalmi, it's easy.
But from R Chisda, in Bavel, and included in the Bavli... Strange.

An enlightening and enjoyable Chanukah!
-Micha

There's a recurring discussion on the list about the mechanism for existing
Jewish practice being a source for ongoing psak halacha. In view of which I
thought it useful to share an essay by R Hutner in Pachad Yitzchak on
Chanuka, maamar 14. He posits that there are two distinct drivers of the
obligation to maintain any given takana - the status of the beis din
concerned and the extent to which Klal Yisrael accepts and keeps the
takana. Each works independently.
However there's an important distinction in the mechanism by which each
works. The beis din's takana works through da'as, ie the conscious decision
to enact a practice. In contradistinction, acceptance of any given practice
by klal yisrael works specifically without da'as, meaning that there has to
be no conscious decision to change or institute a practice. Only when a
practice is becomes widespread without any conscious decision by the
community do we invoke 'im lo nevi'im, bnei nevi'im heim' to say the
practice in question has obligatory force as a minhag. A conscious decision
to implement a practice would remove that force.
There is of course much to add about the dynamics of this, after all this
is R Hutner, see the essay for details. But I thought the above would add
to previous discussions.

Ben



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I thought that olam might appreciate this article from RSRH on Chanukah,
that the Jewish Observer published (in translation) in 1964. I thought it
was great, eye-opening and thought provoking, and we shared it to the
Agudah's email list today. If you'd like to read it, click here:

https://files.constantcontact.com/1cf6ab87001/99d70f59-294a-4fbc-bda4-449957e91cdf.pdf

(Shameless Agudah promotion - if you want to sign up for Agudah emails, go
to https://agudah.org/daily-updates/.)

KT and AFC,

MYG

P.S. I cc'ed R' YL, I know he's a fan of anything from RSRH!
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From
http://mrlitvak.blogspot.com/2020/12/neo-chasidus-guitar-hallel-in-spotlight.html?utm_source=feedburner&;utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MrLitvak+%28Mr.+Litvak%29

A short time ago, I noticed a post at the Life in Israel 
blog<http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com>, related to this. According to 
it, a dispute erupted after someone came into a minyan with a violin 
and started playing it during Hallel. Later on, they agreed to ask a 
???? to a ???? ????? about it.  The question was posed to Rav Shlomo 
Aviner, a leading Dati-Leumi Rabbi, and he said that it should be 
avoided.<http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2020/12/interesting-psak-musical-hallel.html>

See the above URL for more.

Reb Shlomo Carlebach pioneered playing musical instruments during 
some davening.  See

Reb Shlomo Carlebach's last Hoshana Rabbah
https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/comments/9k28yp/reb_shlomo_carlebachs_last_hoshana_rabbah/

IMO no one has come close to Reb Shlomo when it comes to Jewish 
music. Interestingly enough,  his early  background was pure Yekkish.

YL.

At 11:51 PM 12/15/2020, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
>I thought that olam might appreciate this 
>article from RSRH on Chanukah, that the Jewish 
>Observer published (in translation) in 1964. I 
>thought it was great, eye-opening and thought 
>provoking, and we shared it to the Agudah's 
>email list today. If you'd like to read it, click here:
>
><https://files.constantcontact.com/1cf6ab87001/99d70f59-294a-4fbc-bda4-449957e91cdf.pdf>https://files.constantcontact.com/1cf6ab87001/99d70f59-294a-4fbc-bda4-449957e91cdf.pdf

(Shameless Agudah promotion - if you want to sign 
up for Agudah emails, go to? 
<https://agudah.org/daily-updates/>https://agudah.org/daily-updates/.)?


>MYG
>
>P.S. I cc'ed R' YL, I know he's a fan of anything from RSRH!

Thank you.

This essay is the first essay in the Collected 
Writings of RSRH Volume II dealing with Kislev. 
There are 5 other essays in the section dealing 
with Kislev,  and they are all well worth reading.

You plugged the Agudah,  so I will plug the 
Collected Writings of RSRH available from Feldheim.  See

https://www.feldheim.com/collected-writings-of-rabbi-samson-raphael-hirsch.html

Note that the entire set is available now at the 
reduced price of $159.99,  a savings of $40.

I maintain that if one truly wants to understand 
Judaism,  then one has to be familiar with the 
writings of Rabbiner Hirsch.  IIRC, "Mr." Shraga 
Feivel Mendlowitz of Torah Vodaath fame  maintained the same thing!

YL
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> A short time ago, I noticed a post at the Life in Israel 
> blog<http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com>, related to this. According to 
> it, a dispute erupted after someone came into a minyan with a violin and 
> started playing it during Hallel. Later on, they agreed to ask a ???? to 
> a ???? ????? about it.? The question was posed to Rav Shlomo Aviner, a 
> leading Dati-Leumi Rabbi, and he said that it should be 
> avoided.<http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2020/12/interesting-psak-musical-hallel.html> 

As the blogger notes, there is something very odd about the story as 
reported, and it's very likely not true.  It may be based on a true 
story, but without knowing the true details one cannot draw any conclusions.


Legufo shel inyan, as I understand it one of the takanos made against 
the Reformers, along with such things as requiring at least one row of 
seats forward of the bimah, was to ban organ music in shul.  I think 
some rabbonim now have no idea what an organ is, or what it signifies in 
European culture, and have mistakenly extended this to all instruments.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 09:29:38AM -0500, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> Reb Shlomo Carlebach pioneered playing musical instruments during some
> davening...

Except, of course, for the Leviim.

The objections really only began when Reform started bringing instruments
into their Temples for chukas hagoyim reasons. Originally, they were
still shomerei Shabbos, and they hired non-Jews to play. (Amira le'aku"m
letzorekh mitzvah...)

Have a Great Teiveis,
and a enlightening and enjoyable Chanukah!
-Micha

There is a principle the Gemora phrases as, ??mashma-os dorshin.?? This
means that a number of sages may be in agreement over what the halacha is,
and only disagree over what the Torah?s indication for that halacha is. The
Rambam apparently has this principle in mind when he emphasizes that there
is really no disagreement with many basic payrushim mekubalim miSinai,
(such as that the ??pri eitz hadar?? refers to the esrog), and the only
disagreement is over how the written Torah indicates it.

It might be inferred that the Torah indicated the halacha in more than one
way.

There is another principle, though, of ??ein taam echad yotsei mi-kammah
mikra-os,?? a halacha is not indicated by more than one posuk. (This
principle is understood broadly, and further applied, in Sanhedrin 34a,
regarding counting the votes taken by a Beis Din. If two dayanim give an
identical reason for their decision, it counts as one argument?we are
weighing reasons, not counting people who hold them--even if each one?s
source for that reason is a different verse!)

This would seem to contradict the former principal, but Rashi?s comment on
the latter principle shows that he disagrees with the above inference:

??[When two judges both give the same reason for their decision] we only
count them as one reason to support that verdict.???Rashi: Because one of
these verses do not come for this purpose, because we stand by the
principle that no two verses come to teach the same concept. [And]
therefore, one of them [judges] is in error [over the true meaning of the
verse].

Although each verse contains many meanings, those meanings are unique and
exclusive to that verse. If there is a disagreement over which verse is
meant to convey a particular meaning, one of the suggestions (at least)
must be wrong?i.e. not the meaning Hashem intended by that verse.

This also sheds light on how Rashi does not take the meaning of ''Eilu
V'eilu.''

Zv Lampel

???? ??????? ?? ?? ???? ?

m?? ???: ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ??????, ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ?????,
??????? ???? ?????? ????? ????????. ????? ???? ???????? - ???? ??? ????
??????, ???? ????? ???? ???. ??? ???? ?????? - ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???
???? ?????? ????? ?? ??????? ???? - ??, ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????
??????. ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?????: ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???!
- ??? ???: ??? ????? ??? ??? ???.


????? ????? - ??? ????: ???? ???: ??? ??? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ?? ??????
- ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????, ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????. ??? ??? ??????
???: ?????? ???? ???, ?? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??????? - ?? ???? ??? ???? ????
?????.

??"?

??? ????? ??? ??? ??? - ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???, ?????? ?? ?? ????? ???
?????? ???? ??? - ???? ?? ??????? ???? ???.



This also provides light on Rashi?s understanding of Eilu V?Eilu.
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 From

<https://together.ou.org/page/guidance?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&;utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=shsh%20Miketz%205781%20%281%29&utm_content=>https://together.ou.org/page/guidance?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&;utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=shsh%20Miketz%205781%20%281%29&utm_content=

<https://together.ou.org/page/guidance?utm_source=SilverpopMailing&;utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=shsh%20Miketz%205781%20%281%29&utm_content=>Guidance 
Regarding COVID-19
Guidance Statements & Policies. December 15, 2020 
11:45 AM EST. OU/RCA COVID-19 Vaccine Guidance. 
The following is shared based on the guidance of 
our poskim, Harav Hershel Schachter ?????? and 
Harav Mordechai Willig ??????, with the support of Harav Dovid Cohen ??????.
together.ou.org

There has long been an almost uniform consensus 
among leading medical experts that vaccines are 
an effective and responsible manner of protecting 
life and advancing health. For over two hundred 
years vaccinations have been responsible for the 
dramatic reduction of many terrible diseases and 
have significantly improved public health in our 
country and around the world. For this reason, 
the consensus of our major poskim (halachic 
decisors) is to encourage us to use vaccinations 
to protect ourselves and others from disease.

While this guidance of our poskim has addressed 
vaccine usage generally, the introduction of the 
novel COVID-19 vaccines required specific 
reconsideration. The poskim recognize that the 
COVID-19 vaccines have been developed with 
unprecedented speed and are expected to be made 
available under an Emergency Use Authorization 
(EUA). In addition, the two currently leading 
COVID-19 vaccine candidates are mRNA vaccines 
which employ a new vaccine technology.

Notwithstanding these factors, the conclusion of 
our poskim is that, pursuant to the advice of 
your personal health care provider, the Torah 
obligation to preserve our lives and the lives of 
others requires us to vaccinate for COVID-19 as 
soon as a vaccine becomes available.


See the above URL for more.

YL

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