Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 31

Tue, 06 Apr 2021

• 1. Re: Moshe Rabenu got rich from the shivrei luchos (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Re: Moshe Rabenu got rich from the shivrei luchos (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Moshe Rabenu got rich from the shivrei luchos (Zev Sero)
• 4. May I purchase chametz after Pesach from any non-Jewish owned store? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 5. Re: May I purchase chametz after Pesach from any non-Jewish owned store? (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: May I purchase chametz after Pesach from any non-Jewish owned store? (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: A New Mitzvah at the Seder (Danny Schoemann)
• 8. Re: Can Egg Matzah Be Used for Lechem Mishna? (Akiva Miller)

What was the value of the shivrei luchos if there was nothing to buy? How did this wealth affect Moshe?s life in any way?

Simplest answer given your assumptions I think would be his yorshim would be able to sit and learn once in Israel
KT

Joel Rich
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On 4/4/21 7:20 am, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> Today?s Daf (Yerushalmi Shekalim 14) states that Moshe Rabenu got rich 
> from the pieces of the broken luchos. This statement seems quite strange 
> to me given the living conditions in the midbar.
> 1. They didn?t need to buy any food or water, that came from hashem.
> 2.They lived in tents so did not spend money on housing.
> 3. There was no land to buy.
> 4. Their clothing didn?t wear out.
> 5. No one needed to work.
> 
> So given the above what did it mean to be rich in the midbar? What was 
> the value of the shivrei luchos if there was nothing to buy? How did 
> this wealth affect Moshe?s life in any way?

We know that there were many traders who came to the camp, and brought 
every conceivable item that the Jews might want.  I imagine some even 
set up semi-permanent operations, especially during the 19-year period 
in Kadesh.

So wealth had a use beyond mere status symbol, if someone cared to buy 
luxury goods.  I don't imagine Moshe cared to do so, but as a wealthy 
man he could easily afford to and it was his choice not to.  And who 
knows?  If Rebbi thought it legitimate to spend money on out-of-season 
radishes and lettuce, maybe Moshe did too.

This is why the perennial complainers' argument was bogus; if they 
wanted meat, they had many animals, and if they wanted fish or leeks or 
whatever they could easily buy them.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

A more interesting question:  Since Moshe presumably had no particular 
use for his riches, and therefore would have left a nice inheritance for 
his children beyond whatever allotment they would have received in one 
of the Levi'im cities, how did his grandson Yonasan become so poor that 
he went to work for Micha (the bad one, not the navi)?

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. Chametz owned by a Jew during Pesach is forbidden after Pesach. This is
known as chametz she?ovar olav haPesach. May I purchase chametz after
Pesach from any non-Jewish owned store?

A. A non-Jew is permitted to own chametz on Pesach, and he may sell it
after Pesach to a Jew. However, if a non-Jew purchases chametz that was
owned by a Jew during any part of Pesach, that chametz is chametz she?ovar
olav haPesach and is forbidden. Similarly, if a Jewish owned distributor
supplies chametz to a non-Jewish owned supermarket, that chametz in the
supermarket is forbidden as well. Therefore, when determining where to shop
after Pesach, it is not sufficient to establish that the owners of a store
are not Jewish; one must also investigate who supplies chametz to the store
as well. If the supplier is Jewish and did not sell his chametz, one must
wait until the chametz clears out of inventory. This can take a few weeks
for cereals, crackers and other such items that have a long shelf life.
Items such as bread that have a short shelf life may be bought after a few
days. Cereals or other foods that do not contain any of the five grains
(wheat, barley, oats, spelt, rye) may be 
 purchased immediately after Pesach. Vinegar can be assumed to be kitniyos and is not a concern after Pesach.

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> Therefore, when determining where to shop after Pesach, it is not 
> sufficient to establish that the owners of a store are not Jewish; one 
> must also investigate who supplies /chametz/ to the store as well.

Why must one do so?  Where does such an obligation come from?  Having 
determined that the seller is not Jewish, what is the basis for 
requiring one to ask any further questions?   Im kein ein ladavar sof.


> If the supplier is Jewish and did not sell his /chametz/, one must
> wait until the /chametz/ clears out of inventory.
Or one should buy as soon after Pesach as possible, on the assumption 
that a good deal of the stock would already have been in the retailer's 
hands before Pesach, whereas if one waits one can make things worse.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a *healthy* and happy 5781
z...@sero.name       "May this year and its curses end
                      May a new year and its blessings begin"

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 6, 2021, at 9:07 AM, Zev Sero via Avodah <avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> 
> ?CAUTION: External Sender
> 
>> Therefore, when determining where to shop after Pesach, it is not
>> sufficient to establish that the owners of a store are not Jewish; one
>> must also investigate who supplies /chametz/ to the store as well.
> 
> Why must one do so?  Where does such an obligation come from?  Having
> determined that the seller is not Jewish, what is the basis for
> requiring one to ask any further questions?   Im kein ein ladavar sof.
> 
>> ///::::
I would suspect that you might be correct but the circumstances today or
such that it is well known in the United States that there are large Jewish
owned distributors and so it?s like raglayim ladavar 
Kt
Joel rich THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
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Thank you.

R' Allan Engel wrote:
> I have often contended that, in the era of the Korban Pesach, an average
> person would not have the expertise or equipment to calculate Chatzos
> Layla, and that therefore the people must have been careful to finish
> eating the Korban early in the night, so as not to transgress the D'oraysa
> (in the same way as we stop eating Chametz long before Chatzos Yom on the
> 14th Nissan).

Well, since it's the middle of the month, at midnight the moon would be
overhead at the zenith at midnight.

But even if they were off by a day (e.g. kidush levono fiddling), it's also
not unreasonable to assume that they used some (no longer known?)
instrument to calculate midnight and then announce it city-wide close to
the actual time. or they used the starts as per this -
https://outdoors.stackexchange.com/a/1105

But even if it were a cloudy night they probably had tricks - like candles
of certain lengths - to help them gauge the passage of time.

So they probably added a margin of error - but they did not have to be
careful to finish eating the Korban early in the night, even of Chatzos is
D'oraysa.

- Danny
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.
I had quoted the OU, who cited Rav  Schachter that one's egg matzah was
made with grape juice, then it is *vadai* matza ashira, and may be eaten on
Erev Pesach even in the early afternoon.

I asked: <<< I don't understand. Is there a machlokes about the definition
of matzah ashira? If I have egg matzah that was made with *apple* juice, is
it matza ashira only according to *some* opinions? >>>

R' Zev Sero answered: <<< According to the Rambam, 6:5, Matza is only
defined as Ashira if it's made with wine, oil, honey, or milk, but if it's
made with Mei Perot it's still Lechem Oni.
https://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/3506.htm#6 >>>

Thank you! I may have known that once, but had forgotten it. (Mechaber
462:4 acceps all sorts of mei peiros for Matzah Ashira.)

But I'm still confused about Rav Schachter's psak - at least as it was
reported by the OU. It sounds like he is saying that only Grape Juice
Matzah (which is definitely Matzah Ashira) may be eaten in the afternoon.
He didn't say so explicitly, but by omission he implies that Apple Juice
Matza (which is Ashira to the Mechaber but genuine Lechem Oni to the
Rambam) may be also be eaten on Erev Pesach, but only in the morning.

This surprises me. Would the Rambam allow us to eat Lechem Oni (e.g. Apple
Juice Matzah) on the morning of Erev Pesach? Does he hold that the issur of
eating matzah on Erev Pesach applies only in the afternoon? In halacha
6:13, the Rambam says that the issur applies on "Erev Pesach", which I
suppose could be understood as Erev Pesach Afternoon, but that's not the
normative approach.

Somehow, I can't escape the suspicion that someone - quite probably me - is
conflating Ashkenazi avoidance of eating Matza Ashira (which arguably
applies only on Pesach and not on Erev Pesach) with the universal avoidance
of eating Lechem Oni (which I thought applies (at least) to the entire
daytime  of Erev Pesach).

Does anyone else have a clearer understanding of Rav Schachter's position
on these issues?

Thank you
Akiva Miller
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