Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 34

Thu, 15 Apr 2021

• 1. Right to Privacy (Rich, Joel)
• 2. Are We Trying to Grow? (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: Are We Trying to Grow? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Are We Trying To Grow? (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Closed In vs Separated (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: The Moon By Night; A Wrinkle In Time (Jonathan Traum)

A quote concerning a vaccinator in Israel: While Trachtenberg also got to
vaccinate some pop-culture celebrities he managed to take some selfies with
them, but he didn't take any with the Admorim. "I didn't take selfies with
the Admorim because that is not respectful," Trachtenberg added that the
Admorim get vaccinated in a separate room in order to protect their
privacy. Me- How do we evaluate anyone's right to privacy vs. their impact
others?
KT
Joel Rich

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At 08:31 PM 4/12/2021, Akiva Miller wrote:

>Similar (perhaps identical) complaints are often raised by schoolchildren.
>And yet we continue to send our children to school, despite their protests,
>because they need the input in order to grow, whether they can appreciate
>it right now or not.

One does not hear such complaints from children who have good, 
qualified teachers. If the instructor is interesting and knows who to 
present material, the children will look forward to going to school.

R Akiva Miller:

>Yes, rabbis (and teachers) have wide ranges of speaking ability, and of
>communication effectiveness. And they have varying styles and favorite
>topics, just as the audience is more or less interested in different
>things. If someone wants to choose a different shul where he can get more
>out of it, that's great. But to deliberately choose a place where they can
>escape this hashpa'ah entirely? I fear that too many people are simply
>trying to avoid the hard work of trying to grow.

I find the use of the word "grow"  surprising.  My lawn grows,  yet 
it has to be cut down regularly.  If I am not underweight and my 
waistline grows, this is not a plus.
I think better terminology would be to improve positively in Torah 
observance and learning.

Let me give you a concrete example of a Rov who clearly raised the 
level of observance and Torah learning of his baalei batim, and how he did it.

When he first became the rabbi of his shul, he consciously tried to 
drive away anyone who would not follow his approach to Yahadus.  When 
he saw women whose necklines were too low,  he publicly said in shul, 
"Ladies, cover your utters!"  He was staunchly anti-Zionistic and 
made this clear time and time again. He made it clear that married 
women have to cover their hair.   Those who did not like his views 
and approach to Yahadus left.  From the core that remained he built a 
dynamic Torah shul.

He began learning with a group of men who had very limited Torah 
backgrounds. One of them told me that at the very start he would have 
them write the nekudos in the text so that they would pronounce the 
words properly.  The fellow who told me this eventually learned 
through Shas many times.

His congregation truly had positive improvement in Torah observance 
and learning.

How many rabbis will have the courage to strongly speak out 
publicly  against practices of their congregant that are not 
appropriate.? Not many, and if they do,  the chances are they will no 
longer be the rabbi of the shul.

There is a Young Israel near me where many of the older women come to 
shul with their hair not properly covered.  As far as I know,  while 
the rabbi has spoken about many topics,  he has never addressed this 
one or any of the other aspects of Tznius such as sleeve and hem 
length.  Why not?  I suspect that he is fearful of the response if he 
deals forcefully with these topics.

R Akiva Miller wrote:


>Count me among those who often can't remember the rabbi's topic two hours
>later. More often, I'm already at a loss two minutes later. And even more
>often, I am daydreaming even while he is still speaking. But that is MY
>problem, not his. I need to fight to try to pay attention and grab whatever
>bits I can. It's not easy, but isn't that part of what this world is for?

No, it is not your problem.  If the rabbi is an excellent speaker, 
then you will pay attention and listen carefully.  I lived in 
Elizabeth, NJ for 6 years.  When Rav P. M. Teitz came to the shul 
where I  davened and spoke, I listened. Even though Yiddish is not my 
first language, I enjoyed his speeches in Yiddish more that his 
speeches in English, because he spoke a beautiful Litvishe Yiddish.

Rav Shimon Schwab's addresses at Agudah Conventions were one of the 
highlights of the Agudah weekends.  I am sure that his speeches in 
KAJ were just as interesting and well received. It is the speaker's 
job to capture your interest.  Most rabbonim do not know how and 
hence cannot do this.

R Akiva Miller wrote:


>If certain people are "left out" when the topic is "heavily focused on
>Torah subjects", how will they ever grow? For many people, especially those
>who for whatever reason do not attend minyan during the week, the rabbi's
>Shabbos morning speech will be their main (or only) exposure to any Torah
>thoughts at all.

How will women (grow) improve positively if the topic is heavily 
focused on Gemara?  To the best of my knowledge, the overwhelming 
majority of Bais Yaakovs do not teach gemara to their students.

R. Akiva Miller wrote:


>I suspect that the response will be something like: "No! I AM trying to
>grow! I have a regular learning seder, and I go to lots of shiurim!" I
>truly applaud that - adding to one's knowledge of Torah is a very good
>thing. But a rav has a very important ability that a maggid shiur lacks: If
>he sees areas where the community needs to be stronger, he has the
>authority to speak about it publicly. If a maggid shiur tries that, a
>common response may be, "Interesting, but off-topic."

Why isn't the rabbi the one giving most or all of the shiurim?  The 
rov I referred to above who greatly improved in a positive way his 
congregation,  gave vitally al of the shiurum in his shul.

R Akiva Miller wrote:

>Here are a few such questions that came to me, just off the top of my head:
>
>How early can we daven maariv?

>How early can we count sefira?

Check with <http://www.myzmanim.com/>

MyZmanim.com - Instant zmanim for anywhere in the world

>Is the mechitza high enough? solid enough?

I agree that the answer to this requires a competent posek, and he 
may not be the rabbi of the shul.

>Which hechsherim are okay for a shul-sponsored kiddush?

As I have said more than once,  most rabbis are not familiar with the 
details of kashrus.  Ask a rabbi whose meat is used is a particular 
brand of delicatessen, and you will probably get the response, "I do 
not know, call the organization giving the supervision."

I have davened in a shul where the rov,  a highly respected talmud 
chocham,  allowed a women to bring in food from her home for a 
Kiddush.  He is makpid on yoshon,  yet when I asked who gives the 
supervision on a bakery whose products he allowed in shul,  he could 
not answer me.  For many chassidic places, if a person is considered 
heimish (whatever that means) , then he can bring in food to the shul 
from his home.

A rabbi should be able to establish guidelines,  but in my experience 
many do not have the proper knowledge.  In discussions with one 
rabbi, it quickly became clear that I knew more about the intricacies 
of kashrus than he did. For the record,  this rabbi was a first rate 
talmud chocham.

>If a problem is found in the Sefer Torah, is it pasul?
>If the baal koreh makes a mistake, does he have to repeat it?

Shouldn't the Baal Kriah be knowledgeable enough to answer these 
questions? If he isn't, then should he be leining?

>Which kibudim (if any) can be given to a non-shomer Shabbos who comes for a
>bar mitzvah?

Is their really any agreement on the answer to this situation?

R. Akiva Miller wrote:


>Your mention of the Ezras Torah luach strikes me as odd, considering how
>very very often it cites differing minhagim. I've personally seen cases
>where it adds to the confusion and machlokes instead of resolving it. My
>recollection is that Rav Henkin originally designed it for the rabbis, and
>specifically NOT for the congregants, in order to help those rabbis in
>their  leadership choices.

If it was for rabbis and gives differing minhagim,  then how does it 
help the rabbi in his "Leadership choices"?

R Akiva Miller wrote:


>But more importantly than *any* of that: If a not-so-nice incident occurs
>in the community, who will give them mussar about it?

Indeed, who will do this.  I see practices that seem to me to be a 
clear violations of the mitzvah to guard one's health being ignored 
by multitudes,  yet no one speaks out about this to chastise those 
who do this. Just think of the large funerals in EY during the Carona 
virus lockdowns.  Didn't any rabbi of stature speak out against this?

R. Akiva Miller wrote:

>Yes, the OU will have very detailed knowledge about the various food
>products. But what then? How do we pasken? Should I be machmir, or perhaps
>it is more appropriate for me to be meikil? What does the OU know about me
>and my community? How can the OU decide whether or not my shul should allow
>food that's non-cholov yisroel, or non-yashan, or non-glatt? And they're
>certainly not going to decide which *other* hechsherim should be allowed.

These are questions that should be asked of a recognized posek,  In 
general, the rabbi of a shul is not a recognized posek. The Jewish 
Press used to write, "Ask you local competent Orthodox rabbi."  From 
this I deduced that there must be a local Orthodox rabbi who is not 
competent! >:-}

R. Akiva Miller wrote:


>To sum up:
>
>RYL wrote: <<< Davening is routine every week. >>>
>
>That's not the answer. That's the PROBLEM!
>
>I'm not suggesting that most rabbis can successfully fix that problem. Or
>even that a minority have been successful. But if one's preference is to
>have no rabbi at all, he is surrendering.

Surrendering to what? Is he under attack and if so,  by whom?

YL

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The question of whether we are out to grow or not seems pretty
straightforward to answer in the negative.

If you wish, we can talk about ascending, as in "mi yaaleh behar Hashem".
Or refinement, as in vehalakhta bidrakhav. I am not really dealing with
the choice of language.

Except that different ways of framing the goal might suggest different
such terms. And the reason for my pessimism is how little awareness of
the goal of Yahadus our culture fosters. Most people don't even realize
they were taught multiple descriptions, and that those descriptions
might yield different priorities, halakhah lemaaseh.

You've heard this from me before, but not recently.

If a rav, on Shabbos morning, were to talk about how Torah is about
forming a relationship with the Creator, people will accept that as
self-evident.

If he were to instead talk about the Torah as a guide to being more
perfect, refine the Divine Image, in other words, to be more similar to
G-d, the same people will accept *that* as self-evident.

But...

Say someone in the shul were to oversleep, waking up seconds before sof
zeman qeri'as Shema. They are still too sleepy to seriously consider
the question, but we aren't -- should they say Shema now? There are
conflicting requirements. Shema must be said within the first third of
the day. However, it must also be said with kavvanah. And this person
is in no position to fulfill both. So... which takes priority?

Well, had he been in the first shul, and the goal is connecting to HQBH,
kavvanah would likely take priority.

But if he were in the second shul, his focus would be on perfecting his
zerizus, seder, and the other middos involved in saying Shema on schedule.

How can people use halakhah to ascend when they don't know what it is
they are ascending toward?

If you think about it, halakhah literally gets its name from the art
of walking. We have gotten so focused on walking, we don't even think
about having a derekh, a path to travel. Want to feel holy? Take on
another chumera. More halakhah, no grand vision.

This isn't a tirade about missing the forest for the trees. Halevai
it were only about missing the big picture. We are like the apprentice
of an overly methodological captenter.
https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol39/v39n025.shtml
    And then, as they just complete practicing a few ways of joining
    corners, the master, sadly, dies, leaving the student knowing
    everything about woodwork, but with only a layman's knowledge of
    the construction of a cabinet, table, or chair.

No matter how well we know how to walk halachically, how can we ascend
Har Hashem as long as our religion isn't about figuring out where we are,
where we are trying to be, and what route would best take us from here
to there?

Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 16th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   2 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Gevurah sheb'Tifferes: What type of discipline
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                           does harmony promote?

.
I wrote:

> Similar (perhaps identical) complaints are often raised by
> schoolchildren. And yet we continue to send our children to school,

R' Yitzchok Levine responded:

> One does not hear such complaints from children who have good,
> qualified teachers. If the instructor is interesting and knows how
> to present material, the children will look forward to going to school.

That is true of a small minority of children. But in my experience, the
great majority of children will do whatever they can to avoid
school, regardless of the teacher's skills. This would also seem to be the
experience of Tosfos (Shabbos 116a "Puranus") and Ramban (Bamidbar 10:35)
who found vivid imagery in the phrase "like a child fleeing from school."

R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> Let me give you a concrete example of a Rov who clearly raised
> the level of observance and Torah learning of his baalei batim,
> and how he did it.

I think what you meant was that he raised the level of observance and Torah
learning of SOME OF his baalei batim. As you yourself wrote:

> When he first became the rabbi of his shul, he consciously tried to
> drive away anyone who would not follow his approach to Yahadus. ...
> Those who did not like his views and approach to Yahadus left.

I thank you for not disclosing the name of that rabbi, and I thank Hashem
for not exposing me to such a lack of tact when I started out. As someone
wrote me off-list:

> If I ever heard a Rav say "ladies cover your udders" I would
> probably never step foot in any Shul again.

R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> There is a Young Israel near me where many of the older women
> come to shul with their hair not properly covered. As far as
> I know, while the rabbi has spoken about many topics, he has
> never addressed this one or any of the other aspects of Tznius
> such as sleeve and hem length. Why not? I suspect that he is
> fearful of the response if he deals forcefully with these topics.

It sounds to me like you would prefer that this rabbi *would* speak about
such things. Now I'm really confused. If you would prefer shuls that have
no rabbi and no speeches, then how would these topics be dealt with?

R' Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> If the rabbi is an excellent speaker, then you will pay attention
> and listen carefully. I lived in Elizabeth, NJ for 6 years.
> When Rav P. M. Teitz came to the shul where I davened and spoke,
> I listened. ... Rav Shimon Schwab's addresses at Agudah Conventions
> were one of the highlights of the Agudah weekends. I am sure that
> his speeches in KAJ were just as interesting and well received.

I have no argument on this at all, except to say that we don't live in Lake
Wobegon, "where all the rabbis are above average." In the real world, most
rabbis are average, and as hard as they try, they'll be exceptionally
interesting only occasionally. You yourself understand this, as you wrote:

> Most rabbonim do not know how and hence cannot do this.

Which is why I put the responsibility on ourselves to work hard to try to
understand what the rabbi is trying to teach us, just as parents put the
responsibility on their children to work hard at understanding their
teachers - who also tend to be average (except in Lake Wobegon).

I wrote:

> If certain people are "left out" when the topic is "heavily
> focused on Torah subjects", how will they ever grow? For many
> people, especially those who for whatever reason do not attend
> minyan during the week, the rabbi's Shabbos morning speech
> will be their main (or only) exposure to any Torah thoughts at all.

R' Yitzchok Levine responded:

> How will women (grow) improve positively if the topic is
> heavily focused on Gemara? To the best of my knowledge, the
> overwhelming majority of Bais Yaakovs do not teach gemara to
> their students.

Where did I mention Gemara?

RYL seems to have interpreted "heavily focused on Torah subjects" as
"heavily focused on Gemara". That's sad and unfortunate, but that's
the message that today's frum society keeps drumming into our heads. I too
would have fallen victim to this alleged equivalence, but many years ago I
made a conscious decision to resist it. Gemara is a very important part of
Torah, but it is not equivalent to Torah itself.

I suggested some questions to demonstrate why a shul needs a specific
leader to pasken issues for the shul, such as:

> How early can we daven maariv?
> How early can we count sefira?

R' Yitzchok Levine responded:

> Check with MyZmanim.com - Instant zmanim for anywhere
> in the world

Really? MyZmanim is great for giving you the scientific data. But it
doesn't pasken. My screen is open to MyZmanim right now, and I see 4
different versions of "72 minutes" and one more for "90 minutes". And it
doesn't offer any suggestions at all about the possibility of davening
maariv and/or counting sefira at sunset or a short while after sunset.

Over the decades, I have seen shuls that begin maariv 0, 5, 8, 10, 15, 18,
20 minutes after sunset, and probably a few other variants too. In my
opinion, this is not a question that should be paskened by the whims of the
baalei batim. (By the way, I know many communities that end Shabbos 42, 45,
or 50 fixed minutes after sunset, none of which appear in MyZmanim.)

My question:

> Which hechsherim are okay for a shul-sponsored kiddush?

R' Yitzchok Levine responded:

> A rabbi should be able to establish guidelines, but in my
> experience many do not have the proper knowledge. In
> discussions with one rabbi, it quickly became clear that I
> knew more about the intricacies of kashrus than he did. For
> the record, this rabbi was a first rate talmud chocham.

What's your point? No one can be excellent at everything.

My questions:

> If a problem is found in the Sefer Torah, is it pasul?
> If the baal koreh makes a mistake, does he have to repeat it?

R' Yitzchok Levine responded:

> Shouldn't the Baal Kriah be knowledgeable enough to answer
> these questions? If he isn't, then should he be leining?

Ideally, yes, it would be great if the Baal Kriah were that knowledgeable.
But not every shul has enough such people. Many shuls have a number of
volunteers who struggle at memorizing the laining. Not to mention Bar
Mitzvah boys.

Without a rabbi to decide these things, it is all too likely that there
will be disagreements among the people.

My question:

> Which kibudim (if any) can be given to a non-shomer
> Shabbos who comes for a bar mitzvah?

R' Yitzchok Levine responded:

> Is their really any agreement on the answer to this situation?

Exactly my point! Would you prefer the membership to be divided on the
issue, or for the rabbi of the shul to issue a psak that everyone will
follow? I really don't understand your (apparent) preference that a shul
should not have a rabbi at all.

I closed my post by quoting RYL <<< Davening is routine every week.
>>> with my response:

> That's not the answer. That's the PROBLEM!
> I'm not suggesting that most rabbis can successfully fix that
> problem. Or even that a minority have been successful. But if
> one's preference is to have no rabbi at all, he is surrendering.

R' Yitzchok Levine asked:

> Surrendering to what? Is he under attack and if so, by whom?

Yes, we are under attack, by the yetzer hara!

I titled this thread "Are We Trying To Grow?" I apologize for not
clarifying that I meant SPIRITUAL growth. Shouldn't we all be trying to
become better Jews than we were yesterday?

I like to think that the chevra here on Avodah are actively involved in
trying to improve themselves spiritually. A few hours ago, R' Micha Berger
posted in this thread how this growth can be in various different
directions. And that's fine - just as long as you're growing in some
direction or another. The problem is complacency, when people are satisfied
and aren't trying to grow.

If someone is dissatisfied with their shul's rabbi, that's okay, provided
that what they want is a *better* rabbi. If what they want is *no* rabbi,
then how are they different from the child who is fleeing from school?

Akiva Miller
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Don't know what to make of this, but I think it means something...

Unqelus translates "tzaraas" as "segirus" or "segirusa". "Tzarua" is
"segir", etc...

Later in the parashah, he renders "nidah" as "richuqeih".

"Closed in" vs "distanced". Both causes of tum'ah.

As I said, it's bound to be significant somehow, but I don't know if
anyone discusses what.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 17th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   2 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Tifferes sheb'Tifferes: What is the ultimate
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                            state of harmony?

On 4/9/21 10:11 AM, Jay F. Shachter wrote:
> Where do you live? In Eretz Yisrael, the moon is never directly
> overhead.  Maybe you meant that the moon would be at its highest point
> for that night.  How are you going to know when the moon reaches its
> highest point of the night?  You'd have to wait until it starts to go
> lower, and only then would you know that it had been at its highest
> point, a moment earlier.  Are you then going to travel back in time?
No need for time travel.? Like the sun, the moon rises in more-or-less 
the east and sets in more-or-less the west. If you are in the northern 
hemisphere above the tropics (e.g. in Yerushalayim) and it's the full 
moon (e.g. the first night of Pesach), and the moon is due south, that's 
a pretty good approximation of midnight.
> Anshei Khnesseth Haggdolah, who established the benediction Mxaddesh
> Xodashim to be recited on such an occasion, never saw the moon
> directly overhead.  They never spoke to or heard of anyone who had
> ever seen the moon directly overhead.  They did not know that there
> were any inhabited places on the globe from which you could see the
> moon directly overhead.
That may be overstating the case, as they were not so very far away from 
places where the moon might be directly overhead on occasion (which is a 
bit above the tropics because of the angle of the moon's orbit). 
Certainly by the time of Chazal, Aristarchus had made it well-known that 
the *sun* can be directly overhead in some places and at some times.

JonT



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