Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 50

Mon, 31 May 2021

• 1. Re: Rambam Prophesy (Alexander Seinfeld)
• 2. Re: Rambam Prophesy (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Rambam Prophesy (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Rambam Prophesy (Zev Sero)
• 5. Re: Rambam Prophesy (Alexander Seinfeld)
• 6. Re: Rambam Prophesy (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: Rambam Prophesy (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Rambam Prophesy (Zev Sero)
• 9. What is the basis for reciting the beracha of Asher Yatzar? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 10. Re: Rambam Prophesy (Zev Sero)
• 11. Re: Rambam Prophesy (Micha Berger)
• 12. Yelidei haAnak (Micha Berger)
• 13. We Were Like Grasshoppers (Micha Berger)

Yes. 

I?m not really getting what you?re referring to. There?s no information
there about Amos's character. Is that your point, that he?s not explicitly
portrayed as exceptional?

See the Radak?s first comment on that verse, might be helpful.


> 
> Do you get the sense for amos?
> 
> ????????? ??????? ????????????? ???????????? ??????????? ??????? ??????
> ??????????????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????????????? ????????? ??????????
> ????????????? ??????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????? ??????????
> The words of Amos, a sheepbreeder from Tekoa, who prophesied concerning Israel
> in the reigns of Kings Uzziah of Judah and Jeroboam son of Joash of Israel,
> two years before the earthquake.
> 
>> Are you referring to temporary prophets such as Lavan?
>> My own sense from Tanach is that Rambam?s claim is not inconsistent with
>> Tanach, with a few ?horaah shaah? exceptions.
>> 


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On 26/5/21 3:55 pm, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> The Rambam discusses prophecy? ?Prophecy is bestowed only upon a very 
> wise sage of a strong character?? When one looks as Tanach, one doesn?t 
> get the sense that this was always clearly the case.? Anyone have any 
> sources that deal with this?

What examples don't seem to fit this rule?

If you mean merely that not in every case of a navi are we explicitly 
told that they had these prerequisites, why is that a problem?  Since 
nevuah is impossible without them, we don't need to be told about it in 
each case; it should be taken for granted.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a healthy summer
z...@sero.name

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 11:42:59PM -0400, Alexander Seinfeld via Avodah wrote:
>> The Rambam discusses prophecy  "Prophecy is bestowed only upon a very wise
>> sage of a strong character"  When one looks as Tanach, one doesn't get the
>> sense that this was always clearly the case.  Anyone have any sources that
>> deal with this?

> Are you referring to temporary prophets such as Lavan?
> My own sense from Tanach is that Rambam's claim is not inconsistent with
> Tanach, with a few "horaah shaah" exceptions.

There is no "horaas shaah" exceptions, because according to the Rambam,
the topic of who is a navi isn't one of hora'ah, but of metaphysical
causality. Anyone who sufficiently aligns their intellect (including
their Dei'os) with Truth will experience the outflow from the Active
Intellect.

The Divine Volition aspect is that Hashem at times chose to withhold
nevu'ah that the person was capable of experiencing. But, He does not
give nevu'ah to someoen who didn't make himself able first.

See Moreh 2:32 (Friedlander, because it's free; but not my favorite
translation):
    The third view is that which is taught in Scripture, and which
    forms one of the principles of our religion. It coincides with
    the opinion of the philosophers in all points except one. For we
    believe that, even if one has the capacity for prophecy, and has
    duly prepared himself, it may yet happen that he does not actually
    prophesy. It is in that case the will of God [that withholds from
    him the use of the faculty]. According to my opinion, this fact is as
    exceptional as any other miracle, and acts in the same way. For the
    laws of Nature demand that every one should be a prophet, who has a
    proper physical constitution, and has been duly prepared as regards
    education and training. If such a person is not a prophet, he is in
    the same position as a person who, like Jeroboam (1 Kings xiii.),
    is deprived of the use of his hand, or of his eyes, as was the case
    with the army of Syria, in the history of Elisha (2 Kings 6:18).

And Yesodei haTorah 7:5, where he defines "benei hanevi'im" as those
who seek nevu'ah, and even though they train their minds, the Shechinah
could rest upon them or not. Consisten with the description in the MN,
no?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
Author: Widen Your Tent      'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

On 27/5/21 5:12 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
>> Are you referring to temporary prophets such as Lavan?
>> My own sense from Tanach is that Rambam's claim is not inconsistent with
>> Tanach, with a few "horaah shaah" exceptions.

> There is no "horaas shaah" exceptions, because according to the Rambam,
> the topic of who is a navi isn't one of hora'ah, but of metaphysical
> causality. Anyone who sufficiently aligns their intellect (including
> their Dei'os) with Truth will experience the outflow from the Active
> Intellect.

Surely the Rambam doesn't deny that Hashem *can* grant nevu'ah even to 
someone who is naturally incapable of it, just as He can make an eyeless 
person see, etc.  Perhaps he says that he is unaware of any instance of 
Him doing so; neither am I.  But if he were to come across such an 
instance he would have been able to write it off as a "hora'at sha'ah", 
and thus he would not have to abandon his general view.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a healthy summer
z...@sero.name

Yes, and in Ch. 41 Rambam deals with Laban and Avimelech?s nevuah
semantically - 

"And Elohim (an angel) came to a certain person in the dream of night,"
does not indicate a prophecy, and the person mentioned in that phrase is
not a prophet; the phrase only informs us that the attention of the person
was called by God to a certain thing, and at the same time that this
happened at night. For just as God may cause a person to move in order to
save or kill another person, so He may cause, according to His will,
certain things to rise in man's mind in a dream by night. We have no doubt
that the Syrian Laban was a perfectly wicked man, and an idolater;
likewise Abimelech, though a good man among his people, is told by Abraham
concerning his land [Gerar] and his kingdom," Surely there is no fear of
God in this place" (Gen. xx. 11) And yet concerning both of them, viz.,
Laban and Abimelech, it is said [that an angel appeared to them in a
dream]. Comp." And Elohirn (an angel) came to Abimelech in a dream by
night" (ibid. ver. 3): and also," And Elohim came to the Syrian Laban in
the dream of the night" (ibid. XXXi. 24)."

The problem with this Rambam is that not only does God talk to Avimelech
in the dream, they conduct an entire conversation. The Rambam ignores this
detail and files it under ?causes certain things to rise in man?s mind in
a dream? - well if those certain things are messages from God, and all the
more so if the person is able to reply and get further messages from God,
it seems like a bit of semantic gymnastics to say, that?s not prophecy,
but visiting righteous people in a dream is prophecy. Why not just say
that Avimelech?s dream is a horaah shaah prophecy?


On 5/27/21, 5:12 PM, "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

>There is no "horaas shaah" exceptions, because according to the Rambam,
>the topic of who is a navi isn't one of hora'ah, but of metaphysical
>causality. Anyone who sufficiently aligns their intellect (including
>their Dei'os) with Truth will experience the outflow from the Active
>Intellect.

> The words of Amos, a sheepbreeder from Tekoa, who prophesied concerning 
> Israel in the reigns of Kings Uzziah of Judah and Jeroboam son of Joash 
> of Israel, two years before the earthquake.

I wrote my previous response without having looked at the meforshim. 
Having done so I see that the Abarbanel, anticipating R Joel, uses this 
pasuk to refute the Rambam, and the Malbim, anticipating R Alex, answers 
that it was a hora'as sha'ah.

Both of them take for granted that a lowly shepherd could not be the 
kind of person the Rambam is talking about. The Malbim, paraphrasing the 
Abarbanel, mentions "honor and riches" as traits of a prophet that Amos 
can be presumed not to have had.  I didn't see that in the Abarbanel's 
own words, and more importantly I don't recall seeing it in the Rambam.

As for the idea that such a lowly person would not have had the 
opportunity to "learn wisdom", I don't recall the Rambam requiring that 
either, but in any case why should he have been different from the many 
scholars in our history who were manual laborers?

As for the spiritual preparation that the Rambam says a navi needs, 
surely our entire history teaches us that shepherding is the ideal 
occupation for this!  Isn't that why the Avos, the Shevatim, Moshe, and 
David were all shepherds?

So I don't understand the question in the first place.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a healthy summer
z...@sero.name

On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 05:58:08PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
>> There is no "horaas shaah" exceptions, because according to the Rambam,
>> the topic of who is a navi isn't one of hora'ah, but of metaphysical
>> causality. Anyone who sufficiently aligns their intellect (including
>> their Dei'os) with Truth will experience the outflow from the Active
>> Intellect.

> Surely the Rambam doesn't deny that Hashem *can* grant nevu'ah even to
> someone who is naturally incapable of it, just as He can make an eyeless
> person see, etc.  Perhaps he says that he is unaware of any instance of Him
> doing so; neither am I....

He doesn't say that as much as spell out how nevu'ah works without
mentioning it.

The usual case case -- someone aligns their intellect with the Active
Intellect through Knowing HQBH, and then they get the overflow that
ensues.

Except there is a miraculous case -- Hashem preventing that nevu'ah.

If Tanakh had cases of nevu'ah without prep, I would have expected a
listing for that as well.

Speaking of rishonim whose models don't seem to fit Tanakh, what about
the Kuzari (book 2) and Amos. The Kuzari says only born Jews are capable
of nevu'ah, but...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
Author: Widen Your Tent      and it flies away.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                          - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On 27/5/21 7:35 pm, Alexander Seinfeld via Avodah wrote:
> The problem with this Rambam is that not only does God talk to Avimelech
> in the dream, they conduct an entire conversation. The Rambam ignores this
> detail and files it under ?causes certain things to rise in man?s mind in
> a dream? - well if those certain things are messages from God, and all the
> more so if the person is able to reply and get further messages from God,
> it seems like a bit of semantic gymnastics to say, that?s not prophecy,
> but visiting righteous people in a dream is prophecy. Why not just say
> that Avimelech?s dream is a horaah shaah prophecy?

Because he defines nevuah as a connection with Hashem, not as simply 
receiving a message from Hashem.  Anyone can receive a message; Hashem 
doesn't need Western Union to send them.  But that's not nevuah.

"When the Spirit rests on him, his soul is mixed up with the level of 
the angels known as 'Ishim', and he turns into another person, and he 
understands with his mind that he is not as he was, but has been raised 
above the level of other wise men, as it is said in Shaul's case, 'you 
will prophesy and will become another person'."

That doesn't happen when you receive a message.  A message is just 
information.  Lavan and Avimelech remained the same as they were before, 
they just knew something they hadn't known before.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a healthy summer
z...@sero.name

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. What is the basis for reciting the beracha of Asher Yatzar?

A. The Gemara (Berachos 60b) states that after relieving oneself, the
beracha of Asher Yatzar is recited. The actual text of the beracha is
recorded in the gemara. Though the mitzvah of reciting a beracha is
fulfilled even if the person does not understand it's meaning, one should
make a special effort to understand every beracha. This is particularly
true of the beracha of Asher Yatzar, as the sefer Seder Hayom (16th
century) in the section of Kavanos Ha?Berachos, writes that one who recites
this beracha with full concentration will be saved from all forms of
illness. It is noteworthy that the Shulchan Aruch (OC 6:1), which is a
primarily a sefer of halacha, explains the meaning of the beracha of Asher
Yatzar in detail. Clearly, Rav Yosef Cairo, who authored the Shulchan
Aruch, viewed the understanding of Asher Yatzar to be uniquely important.

Here are two main phrases, with some of the explanations found in Shulchan Aruch:

Asher Yatzar es Ha?Adam B?chochma (You created man with wisdom) - This
beracha recognizes the wisdom of Hashem in creating the human body with all
its intricacies.

Rofei kol basar (You are the healer of all flesh) - We recognize that
Hashem watches over us and makes certain that our complex internal organs
function properly, and there are no obstructions which could be fatal. This
phrase concludes, U?mafli la?asos (and performs wonders). The breath of air
that enters our bodies remains properly contained within specific areas and
does not escape from our mouths and into various cavities. Rama adds that
in ways that we cannot comprehend, G-d miraculously binds together the
physical and spiritual dimensions of our bodies and souls.

 I know someone who recently had to have part of her colon removed due to a variety of problems.  She then had to have a colostomy.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colostomy  for details.

It seems to me that when everything is fine with a person the s/he should be very happy to say the Bracha Asher.

YL
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On 27/5/21 7:48 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> Speaking of rishonim whose models don't seem to fit Tanakh, what about
> the Kuzari (book 2) and Amos. The Kuzari says only born Jews are capable
> of nevu'ah, but...

Did you mean Ovadia?

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a healthy summer
z...@sero.name

On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 09:15:09AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> On 27/5/21 7:48 pm, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> > Speaking of rishonim whose models don't seem to fit Tanakh, what about
> > the Kuzari (book 2) and Amos. The Kuzari says only born Jews are capable
> > of nevu'ah, but...
> 
> Did you mean Ovadia?

Yes I did. I also wonder how Edom thought of him after defecting to
Judaism. Seems like the cards were stacked against Ovadiah's success.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

I noticed that on this week's parashah `Unqelus repeatedly translates
"yelidei ha'anaq" as "benei gibaraya". The Metzuda Edition (R Avraham
Davis) bolds all the less literal Unqelus. So, the "-ya" is in bold,
because the original is lashon yachid, and Unqelus makes it a plural.

But I would have made the whole word bold. Unqelus took the giants and
turned them into heros (giborim)!

For those who wonder about the nissim necessary for giants to live
normal lifespans despite the square-cube law, maybe Unqelus avoids the
problem by not taking giantism literally.

(Square-cube law: A leg that is n times as long is only n^2 as strong,
because support strength depends on cross-section. But the person's
weight would grow by n^3. So, his legs are under incredible stress.
So too all his bones. As well as his heart's ability to pump blood --
n^2 the strength needing to push n^3 as much blood. Etc... It's why ants
and elephants can't have the same structure. And why most people with
giantism have health issues. And why true giants would requite perpetual
nissim to stay alive.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Take time,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   be exact,
Author: Widen Your Tent      unclutter the mind.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm

Question about "vannehi ve'eineinu kachagavim"... Israel, in particular
the Negev, can get locust swarms that devour everything in sight. In
particular, the four kosher breeds of chagavim. (Did Hashem permit them
so that they may be eaten during food shortages even when not piquach
nefesh?)

So, how does "we looked like locusts" an apt turn of phrase for
defeatests?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 There's only one corner of the universe
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   you can be certain of improving,
Author: Widen Your Tent      and that's your own self.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF             - Aldous Huxley


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