Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 59

Tue, 06 Jul 2021

• 1. Rasha or tzadik from the womb? (Marty Bluke)
• 2. Torah and Secular Knowledge before Ghettoization (Prof. Levine)
• 3. Re: Rasha or tzadik from the womb? (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: changes in circumstances (Arie Folger)
• 5. Re: Torah and Secular Knowledge before Ghettoization (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: changes in circumstances (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Daf Yomi Aggada interpretation question (Arie Folger)
• 8. Re: Rasha or tzadik from the womb? (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Escorting the Queen (Akiva Miller)

Daf Yomi just learned (Yoma 82b-83a) that a pregnant woman who has a
tremendous craving for a specific food can even eat on Yom Kippur. The
Gemara then tells the following 2 stories:

With respect to a pregnant woman who smells food, it is told: A certain
pregnant woman smelled a food and craved it. Those involved came before
Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi to ask how to proceed. He said to those who were
inquiring: Go and whisper to her that today is Yom Kippur. They whispered
to her, and this whispering helped; she stopped craving the food. Rabbi
Yehuda HaNasi read this verse about the baby she was carrying: ?Before I
formed you in the belly I knew you, and before you came forth out of the
womb I sanctified you? (Jeremiah 1:5), and indeed, the baby who came out of
that woman was Rabbi Yo?anan.
The Gemara relates another story: A certain pregnant woman smelled food and
had a craving to eat it on Yom Kippur. Those involved came before Rabbi
?anina to ask how to proceed. He said to them: Whisper to her that today is
Yom Kippur. They whispered to her, but she did not accept the whisper and
continued to crave the food. Rabbi ?anina read this verse about the baby:
The wicked are estranged from the womb? (Psalms 58:4), i.e., it is clear
they are estranged already in their mother?s womb. Indeed, Shabbetai the
hoarder of fruits came out of her. He hoarded fruit during years of famine
in order to inflate its price and profit at the expense of poor people.

The Gemara clearly says the Rav Yochanan was already a tzadik in the womb
and Shabbetai was a Rasha in the womb.

How does this fit in with bechira, free will? What bechira does a fetus
have? How can a fetus be a rasha or a tzadik? What does that mean? In fact
the Gemara states that the yetzer hara only enters a person after they were
born.
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At 01:13 PM 7/2/2021, Zev Sero wrote:

>That has nothing to do with what the standard of education was for 
>children, whether before Jews were "locked in ghettos" or after.
>
>For that matter, I don't believe Jews were ever "locked in ghettos and 
>hence had little or no contact with the outside world".   Jews generally 
>lived in the same area even when they weren't forced to, for the same 
>reasons we generally do so now; but even where they were forced to those 
>areas were not prisons.  There were places where the Jews locked 
>themselves in at night, for safety, just as many non-Jewish compounds 
>did.  But they had all the contact with the outside world they needed. 
>They had to, since most Jews made their livings by trade of some sort, 
>which required such contact.
>
>So as far as I know there was no change in Jewish education in response 
>to such a supposed locking-in.  Those who felt the need for outside 
>knowledge were able to learn it, but they were generally not children. 
>Those who thought their children needed such knowledge, and had the 
>necessary resources, were generally able to provide it, but most people 
>felt no such need, just as now.



I have the feeling that you did not take the time to read the essay mentioned in my post, namely


<https://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/relevance_secular_studies_jewish_education.pdf>The
Relevance of Secular Studies to Jewish Education (Collected Writings VII)


 From this essay


In the present essay we will not go into detailed explanations to
demonstrate that a serious study of Jewish scholarship requires familiarity
with many areas of general human knowledge. Anyone even superficially
acquainted with, say, Rabbinic literature knows about the significance of
mathematics and astronomy, botany and zoology, anatomy and medicine,
jurisprudence and ethics in the deliberations of our Sages. He will
therefore not underestimate the extent to which disciples of Talmudic
learning can benefit from familiarity with these fields of general
knowledge. 

and


Thus, we see that everything new that the student learns about the nature
and structure of things is an aid to his understanding of the Hebrew
language. These few examples should be enough to show us how the teaching
of the Hebrew language stands to gain from the various areas of secular
studies. 

and


Consider the very first pages of the Pentateuch. Think how much more
readily the light from the wisdom reflected in these pages and the moral
strength nurtured by them will find their way into the hearts and minds of
our young students if, before reading the Bible, they have already learned
to perceive the world as an abundance of forces operating in accordance
with certain laws and if they already know something of the history of men
and nations. They will then be in a better position to picture the context
of time and space upon which this Book of Books seeks to shed light with
the rays of the concept of God. The purpose of this light is to help
mankind as a whole, and Jews in particular, find their proper place in the
world order arranged by God. 

Please take the time to read the entire essay.  

RSRH's approach to secular studies is based on	Torah principles that Those
who proceeded him surely knew and followed.  RSRH was a real talmud chocham
and this was attested to by one the sons of the Chasam Sofer after meeting
him

YL

On 4/7/21 4:29 am, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
> 
> How does this fit in with bechira, free will? What bechira does a fetus 
> have? How can a fetus be a rasha or a tzadik? What does that mean? In 
> fact the Gemara states that the yetzer hara only enters a person after 
> they were born.

The gemara in Nidda says "Tzadik verasha lo ka'amar"; the angel doesn't 
say whether the person *will* be a tzadik or a rasha.  But that doesn't 
meant the person is a blank slate and has no tendencies one way or the 
other.

A person is created with certain tendencies.  Certainly things he's 
drawn to and others he's repelled by.   He then has the bechira to go 
along with those tendencies, or to defy them, or to channel them in 
positive or negative ways.

A baby's neshama may not yet be within him during pregnancy in the same 
way that it will be after birth, and certainly not as it will be after 
bar mitzvah, but the body has its inbuilt tendencies, which we now know 
are often genetically determined, and thus nothing to do with the neshama.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a healthy summer
z...@sero.name

R' Yoel Rich reported:
<<Rough translation (after story of how some ignored chalav akum rules and
then found out they had drunk basar vchalav cooked concoction ?they all
fell on their faces due to their great sin that they ate treif and basar
vchalav and they cried out how great are the words of the sages, and
truthfully thus I received that all the Sages enactments in addition to the
revealed reasons there are many other hidden reasons that they did not
reveal and he who listens will carry a blessing[and specifically I heard
that in America there are many of the nations who drink pigs milk because
there are many of them there]
Me-so how can we ever take into account changes in circumstances (e.g.
Rabbeinu Tam on klei shir or how we skirt medicine on shabbat rules)
Research opportunity-pig milk consumption in the late 19th century?
Wiki says-Pig milk is not considered suitable for human consumption or
commercial production for a number of reasons. Pigs are considered
difficult to milk. The sow herself is reluctant to be milked, may be
uncooperative or become spooked by human presence, and lactating pigs may
be quite aggressive.>>

I am quite convinced that this is a highly unfortunate story of
unscrupulous sinners wanting to make a major possek look bad by making him
believe and report the pig milk story, even as it may never have happened.
Mare's milk I would believe, but pig's milk is highly unlikely.
-- 
Mit freundlichen Gr??en,
Yours sincerely,

Arie Folger,
Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/
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On 4/7/21 1:13 pm, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> I have the feeling that you did not take the time to read the essay mentioned in my post,

RSRH's essays are not Torah min Hashamayim, Mar Bar Rav Ashi did not 
sign them, and I am not obligated to accept them.  He was a great man 
who achieved a great deal, and I'm sure he has a brilliant gan eden, but 
that doesn't mean his views are mainstream, let alone that they're true.

In any case, we're talking about a historical question.  Not what ought 
to be, but what was.  Your assertion was that your preferred model of 
education was the standard among Jews, until it somehow changed because 
Jews were locked up in ghettos.   I simply don't believe that is true. I 
know of no evidence for it at all, and you have not advanced any 
evidence for it.  An essay is not evidence.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone a healthy summer
z...@sero.name

.
R' Joel Rich wrote about pig milk and asked:

> Me-so how can we ever take into account changes in
> circumstances (e.g. Rabbeinu Tam on klei shir or how
> we skirt medicine on shabbat rules)

To me, this sounds very similar to "Why are we allowed to kill lice on
Shabbos?", just applied to a different situation.

Akiva Miller
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Dear Chaverim,

On Yoma 83b the story is told of Rabbi Meir, Rabbi Yehuda and Rabbi Yosi
who were traveling, stayed at an inn whose owner was called Kidor, and
while Rabbi Yosi and Rabbi Yehuda were unsuspecting, Rabbi Meir suspected
the owner of being up to no good. Unlike his two compagnons, Rabbi Meir
abstained for giving his purse to the innkeeper for safeguarding during
Shabbat, and instead buried it at the head of the innkeeper's father's
grave. On Shabbat morning the innkeeper told the Tannaim about a funny
dream he had had, to go and check his father's grave, whereupon Rabbi Meir
told him not to put too much stock in dreams at twilight, and for good
measure spent the rest of Shabbat at the grave guarding his own purse.

Motzaei Shabbat the innkeeper pretended never to have received anything for
safeguarding from Rabbi Yehuda and Rabbi YOsi, but by plying him with wine,
they found a way to pretend before the innkeeper's wife that he had sent
them to pick up their purses, and the plan worked. It seems that as a
result, the couple got into a terrible fight, as he ended up killing his
wife.

On a certain level, the story is distressing, as the wife did the right
thing (though not necessarily wanting to), and yet she dies while her
husband remains alive. I don't consider this a big difficulty, as I can
readily imagine her being a willing participant in his schemes, and they
simply got into a fight, as criminals eventually do, with disastrous
consequences. However, it is also perfectly possible that just the opposite
happened, that the wife very much wanted to return the stolen goods, and
wanted her husband to let her, and yet, though she may have been initially
relieved, she ended up dead. We don't know and for moral reasons, I find
the first interpretation more appealing.

However, I have a more profound question. Here, Rabbi Meir hears the
innkeeper report about a kind of prophetic dream. at the end of Horayot,
Rabbi Meir, having failed at a putsch against Rabban Shimon ben Gamliel,
has a dream that she should apologize, and he doesn't, saying ein chalom
belo devarim beteilim. Yet here Rabbi Meir is faced with the
incontrovertible fact that dreams may convey truth. Is our story from after
Horayot and is it a chding of Rabbi Meir?

If so, it is entirely possible that the story never happened and is being
told vy Chazal to be meramez very gently a critique of Rabbi Meir (who we
do not want to criticize more directly, so great is his stature), or that
the story did happen and HKBH made it happen in such a way so as to let
Rabbi Meir know that he had been wrong that one time in Horayot to claim
ein chalom belo devarim beteilim, or that the story did happen, but was
later stylized and embellished for the reason I gave in the first
interpretation.

I see no hashkafic problems with either of the three approaches, and all
three seem sound to me. So I wonder, do any of you know of mefarshim that
link this story with the story at the end of Horayot? Do they discuss the
possible meaning of this linkage?
-- 
Mit freundlichen Gr??en,
Yours sincerely,

Arie Folger
Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/

<http://rabbifolger.net/2016/01/28/wir-missionieren-nicht-aber-warum-nicht/>
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On Mon, Jul 05, 2021 at 01:34:23AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> On 4/7/21 4:29 am, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
>> How does this fit in with bechira, free will? What bechira does a fetus
>> have? How can a fetus be a rasha or a tzadik? What does that mean? In
>> fact the Gemara states that the yetzer hara only enters a person after
>> they were born.

> The gemara in Nidda says "Tzadik verasha lo ka'amar"; the angel doesn't say
> whether the person *will* be a tzadik or a rasha...

This is also what you will see looking through explanations of the
medrash (R Yochanan in Bereishis Raba 63:4) about "vayisrotzetzu habanim
beqirbahh" (25:22). What do you do with the implication that Esav was
already attracted to EZ and Yaaqov to Torah even before birth?

Well, could be a reference to their predispositions, but they aren't
actually compelled to make either choice...

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   or something in your life actually attracts more
Author: Widen Your Tent      of the things that you appreciate and value into
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

Back in 2014, (https://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol32/v32n170.shtml#13) I
posted my confusion about Melave Malka. I perceived a contradiction between
escorting the Queen (for which the Queen must still be present) and doing
melacha (for which the Queen must already be gone).

In that thread, I wondered...
> if the true purpose of this seudah might have little or
> nothing to do with Shabbos. Could it be that the true
> purpose is to nourish that bone that doesn't decompose, or
> some other purpose, and "escorting the Queen" is merely a
> story for the masses?

A new idea came to me over Shabbos, and now, having reviewed that thread, I
see that it segues beautifully from how that conversation had ended. R'
Micha Berger had written:

> "Sheishes yamim ta'avod ve'asisa kol melkhatekha,
> veyom hashevi'i Shabbos Lashem E-lokekha."
> Working during the rest of the week is part of what
> Shabbos is about.

I had answered:

> Yes, but I don't see it as something to celebrate.
> We light a fire in Havdala; dayenu.

I now retract that dismissive response. Perhaps working during the rest of
the week *IS* something to celebrate.

I would like to suggest that the essence of Motzaei Shabbos' identity is
*not* its relation to the Shabbos that just ended, but its relation to the
week that is now beginning. More specifically, Motzaei Shabbos is the
anniversary of the creation of light, the anniversary of Creation
altogether.

Perhaps the role of Melave Malka ?s not only about escorting the Queen.
Perhaps it is also (as I had always suspected) a celebration of Melacha.
Not that we can finally do melacha "again", but it is rather a celebration
of the *beginning* of the week. A new week has begun, and it is now our
task to spend the next six days getting ready for next Shabbos - as R'
Micha wrote above.

POSTSCRIPT: I see two problems with the above ideas. The main one is that
it is quite a departure from the traditional idea of "Escorting the Queen"
who is leaving. It answers my problems nicely, but I'd be more comfortable
with it if a similar idea was already in the seforim somewhere. Second, we
already have a mitzvah that explicitly commemorates the beginning of
Creation: the Ner. (I find it significant that we light the Ner every
single Motzaei Shabbos of the year - even on Yom Tov, even on Tisha B'Av.)
If I am correct that Melaveh Malka relates to the new week more than to the
departed Shabbos, then the Ner should be part of the Melave Malka. But it
isn't - it's part of Havdala.

All comments and suggestions are appreciated.

Akiva Miller
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