Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 69

Tue, 10 Aug 2021

• 1. davening speed -tircha d'tzibbur vs tircha (Marty Bluke)
• 2. This Rosh Hashanah (5782) will be the beginning of a new Shemitah year. (Prof. L. Levine)
• 3. Re: Being M'karev ha Geulah (Brent Kaufman)
• 4. Re: Being M'karev ha Geulah (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Should Artscroll Be Worried? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: talit katan (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Should Artscroll Be Worried? (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: Should Artscroll Be Worried? (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: Should Artscroll Be Worried? (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Should Artscroll Be Worried? (Prof. Levine)

The shuls where I Daven have a minimum time for shemoneh esrei (6 minutes)
so the shliach tzibbur shouldn?t start before 6 minutes pass. That in my
mind is a reasonable compromise because then everyone knows how long they
have to daven.

Truthfully, I find the problem going the other way. There are many chiyuvim
who are oblivious to the fact that they daven longer then everyone else in
the minyan and everyone stands around waiting for them. It is certainly a
tircha dtzibura if the overwhelming majority of the minyan finishes
shemoneh esrei and have to wait for the chazan.
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From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. This Rosh Hashanah (5782) will be the beginning of a new Shemitah year.
The Torah forbids many agricultural activities in Eretz Yisroel during
Shemitah, such as planting, pruning and harvesting. Chazal added many other
restrictions. After the destruction of the Bais Hamikdash, is the mitzvah
of Shemitah still a Torah commandment, or is Shmitah now a mitzvah
derabbanan (Rabbinic)?


A. The position of the Tur (YD 331) as well as the Rambam according the
Chazon Ish (Shevi?is 3:8) is that Shemitah is currently a mitzvah
derabbanan. This follows the opinion of Rebbi cited in the Gemara (Gittin
36a-b). According to Rebbi, the mitzvah of Shemitah is linked to the
mitzvah of Yovel which was observed every 50 years. During the Yovel year,
the land rested, slaves were freed and land that was sold was returned to
its original owner. During the second Beis Hamikdash period, Yovel was not
observed, since the Biblical mitzvah of Yovel is only in effect when the
land of Israel is divided among the twelve Shevatim, with each tribe living
on its ancestral land. Most of the tribes did not return to Israel after
the destruction of the first temple, and therefore Yovel was no longer a
Torah mitzvah. According to Rebbi, since Yovel is not observed, Shemitah is
derabannan. However, the Ramban (Sefer Hazechus ? Gittin 18a) and the
Rambam according to the Kessef Mishnah, (Hilchos Shm
 ita Viyovel 4:25) are of the opinion that the Halacha does not follow
 Rebbi, and the Torah obligations of Shemitah remain in effect even today.
 The Chazon Ish (Shevi?is 3:8) writes that Shemitah today is derabbanan, as
 per his understanding of the Rambam. Rav Chaim Kanievsky (Derech Emunah,
 Shmita Viyovel, 9:10) concurs with the Chazon Ish, and this is the
 generally accepted opinion. In truth, in most situations, this
 disagreement is academic. We must keep all mitzvos whether they are from
 the Torah or derabbanan. However, in certain cases of doubt, we are more
 lenient because we follow the ruling that Shemitah today is derabbanan.

YL
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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2021 11:31 PM GMT
From: "Prof. L. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
> The last words that Rav Joseph Breuer heard from his father were,
> "I am fully convinced that Rav Hirsch's way will be m'karev ha-geulah"
> - bring the redemption closer.

> Question: When was the last time you studied some of the writings of
> RSRH and did your part to bring the geulah closer?

I didn't take it as meaning that every time his writings/teachings are
learned it is somehow, spiritually, pushing up the current, final date
of the geula.

But rather that his teachings and approach, will play a big part in the
overall kiruv movements, that appeal to mainstream, educated, working
families, that can relate to his acceptance of "Derech Eretz", however it
is defined and/or interpreted by any given person. That is how I read R.
Breuer's recollection, anyway.

However, I very recently read an academic article that discusses the
disparity between the traditional Torah calenderical chronology putting
us at the year 5781 and the standard historical chronology which has an
additional 165 years, which the Jewish calendar does not account for.

The paper (found here:
<https://www.academia.edu/44403580/The_Case_of_the_Missing_165_Years>)
is based upon the search for these missing years on a long article, or
paper, written by R. Shimon Schwab ztz"l, in 1962, iirc, that comes to
the conclusion that Daniel left out the reigns of the last 10 kings of
Persian, at the beginning of the return to rebuild the Bh"M and Gemara's
statement about the end of the minyan hashtaros. (Possibly the period
of the Anshei Kenesses HaGedola, give or take.) This was done to conceal
the date of the geula, thus making it actually 5946, only 54 years before
the end of the sixth millenia, and all that that implies.

Soooooo.... in a way, his derech and teachings put us closer to the
geulah, in an actual way.

cb kaufman

On Wed, Aug 04, 2021 at 11:31:27PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> Question: When was the last time you studied some of the writings of
> RSRH and did your part to bring the geulah closer?

I don't think it's our job to "bring the ge'ulah closer". It is our job
to make Hashem's Will manifest in this world.

Whether that brings the ge'ulah closer or not is a side issue, and one
which to my mind is dangerously similar to being an eved hameshameish
es haRav al menas leqabel peras.

Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 A cheerful disposition is an inestimable treasure.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   It preserves health, promotes convalescence,
Author: Widen Your Tent      and helps us cope with adversity.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF       - R' SR Hirsch, "From the Wisdom of Mishlei"

On Sun, Aug 01, 2021 at 02:43:15PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> However, when Mashiach comes, the Shas and other printed sefarim will
> be relegated to the museums, and the original - and ideal - system of
> learning Torah Shebe'al Peh orally will be reinstituted. For now, Torah
> learning from written sefarim is only a temporary measure, a "marker," to
> stay the course, and keep us familiar with the Torah, until bi'as HaMashiach,
> when the ideal way of learning be'al peh, orally, will be reinstituted.

Whereas I imagined the reverse...

I imagine the next Sanherin will figure out a set of gezeiros and repeals
of existing gezeiros so that I can have access to a full library on my
e-reader and yet still not drown the sanctity of Shabbos in a deluge of
"social media" and other mindless web surfing.

As I said, the reverse -- enabling MORE access to texts, not less.

I always thought of the distinction as being more about the formal textual
vs the discursive forms of tradition than about physical print vs. memory.
Is learning Mishnayos by people repeating it all that different than
hitting a book? Or is it whether halakhah is formalized into the text
of the mishnayos altogether?

The ideal way to learn TSBP is dialectical, yes. Codification would
definitely be deprecated in the messianic era. But as Marty Bluke wrote,
given the sheer amount of halachic discourse we have accumulated between
now and then, how could we replace all that with memorization?

All of the Shaagos Aryeh would be only available to friends of people
with edietic memory? The Qetzos? The Chida? We are going to just throw
away millennia of chiddushim???

Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Brains to the lazy
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   are like a torch to the blind --
Author: Widen Your Tent      a useless burden.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF               - Bechinas haOlam

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 08:40:18PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
> It seems obvious that it is not from Sinai. The gemara seems to take it for
> granted that people at the time of Matan Torah dressed much the same way as
> people did in the gemara's times, and as the Greeks and Romans did, by
> wrapping themselves in square cloaks pinned at the shoulder. Thus they wore
> proper taleisim all day, and had no need for a talles koton.

Not sure that's what they pictured for Moshe's tallis. If it were closer
to a Teimani shamla, then they are indeed describing what Middle Easterners
have been wearing for millennia.

See how Hittites dressed in the days of Ramasses II in this fresco
of prisoners of war taken from the Battle of Qadesh on the Abu Simbel
Temple
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Abu_Simbel_temple_prisoners_of_war.jpg
Those look like four cornered garments draped over one shoulder and
the body.

That said, the word "tallis" is borrowed from the Greek "stollus"
which is why it was variously pluralized as either "talliyos" (like a
word with a yud-saf suffix) or "tallisos" (acknowledging that it is a
Greek case suffix).

If you're wondering why there are pairs of sets of stripes on each side
of most tallisos, that's because there would be two set stripes on each
side of men's garments in Greek fashion. Whereas women would wear one
potentially more elaborate set. That is how well the Greek fashion is
preserved in our tallisos.

So there are really two parts to RJR's question:

1- When did we start wearing garments for the sake of having something
to put tzitzis on? (Talleisim, if by any other name.) The mitzvah itself
is conditional, and if you had no reason to wear 4 kanfos, so be it.

2- When did tallis qatan begin in particular.

To answer the first, as Zev says, the point of wearing a tallis -- gadol
or qatan -- today is that we didn't want to stop wearing one daily after
centuries of that being the norm simply because of style. Even in the
early stages of the Byzantine Empira, the toga was only for formal or
official dress. I don't know about Sassanid fashion, wikipedia having
less to say on the topic, but it would seem that by the end of the
amoraim, common folk didn't have a natural reason to put on tzitzis
daily.

Although there may have been a lapse and a restoration, so there could
have been generations after the shift to tunics before wearing a tallis
daily became "a thing". (Yes, "shift to tunics" was an intentional pun.)

As for tallisos qatan.... (I assume that's the right plural, like "batei
sefer".)

The Mordechai says you aren't yotzei with a tallis qatan because it isn't
an outergarment. (Which is one of the two issues that famously led some
Briskers not to wear one outside a reshus hayachid on Shabbos, since the
tzitziyos wouldn't be mevatlim to the begged and you'd be carrying. The
other is Baal haMaor saying that tekheiles is me'aqeiv es halavan.)

If tallis qatan is a minhag that doesn't fulfill the mitzvah, it is
apparently a commemoration rather than anything that could possibly
be miSinai.

Tallisos qatan weren't worn in Teiman.

Chodesh Tov!
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 For those with faith there are no questions.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   For those who lack faith there are no answers.
Author: Widen Your Tent                        - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

At 02:18 PM 8/9/2021, Micha Berger wrote:

>Whereas I imagined the reverse...
>
>I imagine the next Sanherin will figure out a set of gezeiros and repeals
>of existing gezeiros so that I can have access to a full library on my
>e-reader and yet still not drown the sanctity of Shabbos in a deluge of
>"social media" and other mindless web surfing.
>
>As I said, the reverse -- enabling MORE access to texts, not less.

Perhaps after Moshiach comes our mental capacities will be increased 
so that we will be able to have all of Torah  in our memories.

We have all heard stories of people who knew all of Shas by 
heart.  Rav Dr. Yosef Breuer,  Z"TL, was one of them. One of his 
grandsons recalls learning with him after he lost his eyesight.  He 
would recite the Gemara, RASHI, and Tosafos precisely from memory.

YL

But as Marty Bluke wrote,
> given the sheer amount of halachic discourse we have accumulated between
> now and then, how could we replace all that with memorization?
> 
> All of the Shaagos Aryeh would be only available to friends of people
> with edietic memory? The Qetzos? The Chida? We are going to just throw
> away millennia 
> -//////////////////?///://///
That?s actually what I thought was supposed to be the rule. We were going
to be limited by our wetwear which I would guess would yield a more
flexible and vibrant ongoing process
Kvct
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On Mon, Aug 09, 2021 at 04:51:05PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> Perhaps after Moshiach comes our mental capacities will be increased so that
> we will be able to have all of Torah  in our memories.

> We have all heard stories of people who knew all of Shas by heart...

We are talking far far more than shas. We are talking every single seifer.
No *community* would have enough brain cells to store it all.

No more Beis Yoseif. Nor more Sheiv Shemaatesa.... We wouldn't just have
a more fluid halakhah, that fluidity would be at the expense of so much
knowledge. Less informed opinions.

As I said, a move away from teaching texts as codifications would
necessarily go hand-in-hand with reinstituting the Sanhedrin and the
judiciary it runs. But why would we think it's better to have less
information to work with?


But about memorizers and "the pin test"...

My next door neighbor when I was a boy was R/Dr Kalman Kalikstein. His
experiences during the Holocaust are pretty well documented as he shared
a bunk with Eli Weisel, where they became friends and when through the
DP experience, France, and got to US together. (He is the boy on the
front left in this picture from the Ambloy's children's home in 1945 or
'46 <https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/pa1174105>.)

One summer I studied in the basement of our shul every morning between
the end of school and camp. He was there as well. And one morning I saw
him sitting over an old, worn, tome, writing something on a piece of
paper notebook paper, and leaving it in the book. Being as I was/am a
curious kid, as soon as he left, I pulled the book off the shelf to see
what he wrote. The volume was one of Yerushalmi. A corner of one page
was missing. He rewrote the missing words of both sides of the page
from memory.

Including the commentary published on the outside of the page (likely
the Penei Moshe, depending on mesechta).

(At least, that's how I remember it. That latter part seems pretty
incredible. But to quote the defense layer who has to establish the
witness's credentials when putting the Chafeitz Chaim on the stand to
attest to the accused's character: "Not all these stories may be true,
but with all due respect your honor, do they tell such stories about
you or me?" Skepticism at my own memory aside...)

He certainly knew the Yerushalmi itself word-by-word by heart. And that's
an unknown professor at Queens College, not some famous rav.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Be happy not because everything is good,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but because you can see the good side
Author: Widen Your Tent      of everything.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

At 01:53 PM 8/10/2021, Micha Berger wrote:
>We have all heard stories of people who knew all of Shas by heart...
>
>We are talking far far more than shas. We are talking every single seifer.
>No *community* would have enough brain cells to store it all.
>
>No more Beis Yoseif. Nor more Sheiv Shemaatesa.... We wouldn't just have
>a more fluid halakhah, that fluidity would be at the expense of so much
>knowledge. Less informed opinions.

I may be wrong, but I think I heard that Rav Ovadia Yosef had total 
recall of "everything."

Also, is it possible that not all of the seforim we have today are 
really needed?

>Here is something I recall hearing a long time ago. It is a joke 
>about the Jewish people and HaShem.
>
>The Jewish people decided that the Jewish religion had become too 
>burdensome, so they went to Har Sinai and said "Here HaShem take 
>everything back. It's too much for us."
>
>HaShem takes a look at what the Jews want to give back, and replies, 
>"This is not what I gave you!" >:-}

YL







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