Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 84

Tue, 05 Oct 2021

• 1. A fly landed in my cup of wine. (Prof. L. Levine)
• 2. understanding tosafot (Rich, Joel)
• 3. Can I make Kiddush or Havdalah on a cup of coffee or tea? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 4. Scholarly article on one Rashi in Bereshis (torahm...@gmail.com)
• 5. Re: Scholarly article on one Rashi in Bereshis (Micha Berger)
• 6. 2 gemaras (Rich, Joel)

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. A fly landed in my cup of wine. May I remove the fly and drink the wine, or must I spill it out?

A. The Gemara (Megila 13b) states that the wicked Haman maligned the Jews
to Achashveirosh. Haman reported that if a fly would fall in a cup of wine,
the Jews would remove the fly and drink the wine, but if King Achashveirosh
would touch the wine, the Jews would spill out the wine and kasher the cup.
The Rosh (Avoda Zara 5:11) (as understood by Teshuvas Shar Efraim, siman
47) indicates that it is acceptable to drink the wine because there is no
transfer of taste from one cold substance to another. However, if the fly
remains in the wine for 24 hours, this would be viewed as a form of cooking
and the wine would be prohibited. (Soaking for 24 hours or more is known in
halacha as kovush, which means pickled, and kovush kimivushal- pickling has
the halachic status of cooking.) Other poskim disagree and maintain that
the wine is permissible even after 24 hours because a fly imparts a taam
pogum (an off taste), and taam pagum is batel birov (nullified in a
majority). The Shulchan Aruch and
  Rema (YD 104:3) follow the lenient opinion. However, if one is disgusted
  by the thought of drinking wine that had in it a fly, it would be
  forbidden for him to do so because of ?bal tishaktsu? (it is forbidden to
  do something that one finds disgusting- see Shulchan Aruch YD 116:6).

YL
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At one level I certainly get the idea that not fully understanding Tosafot
might be a "moral" failure. On the other hand I distinctly remember hearing
a shiur quoting R'YBS as saying that question doesn't bother me.
I always understood this in two ways. The first being that there's just a
limited amount of bandwidth that each of us has and while we believe we
could reconcile all these questions, if they're not to the heart of the
matter, it would just take too long and not allow us to get to other areas
towards which we wish to turn our attention.
For me however the real heart of the matter is that in a number of cases
all the data points can never be made to lineup and it becomes a question
of which exceptions bother you more. To me the meta question is why
different poskim differ on which exception bothers them more.

Thoughts?
KT
Joel Rich

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From

https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/can-i-make-kiddush-or-havdalah-on-a-cup-of-coffee-or-tea/?category=kiddush&;utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=shsh%20Bereishit%205782%20%281%29&utm_content=&spMailingID=33748881&spUserID=MjM3MTAxNzY3NzIS1&spJobID=2043013577&spReportId=MjA0MzAxMzU3NwS2
Can I make <em>Kiddush</em> or <em>Havdalah</em> on
a cup of coffee or tea? | OU Kosher Certification<https://oukosher.org/halacha-yomis/can-i-make-kiddush-or-havdalah-on-a-cup-of-coffee-or-tea/?category=kiddush&;utm_source=SilverpopMailing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=shsh%20Bereishit%205782%20%281%29&utm_content=&spMailingID=33748881&spUserID=MjM3MTAxNzY3NzIS1&spJobID=2043013577&spReportId=MjA0MzAxMzU3NwS2>
Shulchan Aruch (OC 182:2; 272:9; 289:2; 296:2) writes that if there is no
wine available, one may recite Birchas Hamazon, Kiddush (see last paragraph
for further clarification about kiddush) or Havdalah on a beverage that is
prevalent in that location. This is known as Chamar Medinah (the local
wine). Do tea or coffee qualify? Rav ...
oukosher.org


Shulchan Aruch (OC 182:2; 272:9; 289:2; 296:2) writes that if there is no
wine available, one may recite Birchas Hamazon, Kiddush (see last paragraph
for further clarification about kiddush) or Havdalah on a beverage that is
prevalent in that location. This is known as Chamar Medinah (the local
wine).

Do tea or coffee qualify?

Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yebia Omer 3:19 and Yechaveh Daas 2:38) cites some
Acharonim who maintain that a beverage is only considered Chamar Medinah if
it is intoxicating. Based on this, Rav Ovadia Yosef rules that one should
not recite Havdalah on tea or coffee. Only alcoholic beverages such as beer
are acceptable. This was also the opinion of Rav Chaim Volozhener.

The Rogotchover suggests that even if it is necessary for chamar medina to
be intoxicating, milk can be considered an intoxicating beverage based on
the Gemara (Kerisos 13b)that a cohen may not perform the avodah in the Beis
Hamikdash after drinking milk. (Presumably, milk is intoxicating in the
sense that it causes drowsiness and affects a person?s mental state.)
However, Rav Y.D. Soloveichik (Mi?peninei Harav p. 87) rejects the
comparison between avodah and chamar medinah. Milk invalidates a cohen for
avodah because it causes drowsiness, while chamar medinah is limited to
actual intoxication.

On the other hand, the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 296:13), Igeros Moshe (OC 2:75)
and Tzitz Eliezer (8:16) write that in the absence of wine, if one has no
other choice, one may recite havdalah on coffee or tea. One may add milk to
their tea or coffee, but it is not necessary. Igeros Moshe explains that
these drinks are similar to wine because they are served to guests to
demonstrate distinction or respect, and not only to quench one?s thirst.

The Shulchan Aruch (OC 279:9) writes that there are different opinions
whether chamar medina may be used for Kiddush at night and during the day.
The Mishnah Berurah (272:27) rules that Chamar Medinah may be used for
Shabbos daytime kiddush, but should not be used for Friday night Kiddush,
If wine is not available, Friday night Kiddush should be recited on
challah.
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I stumbled upon this interesting article(by a teacher at Bar Ilan) about
the Rashi in Bereshis that (quoting a gemora in Yevamos) says Adam 'mated
with all the animals'

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4131671

To summarize, it became a big debate among commentators, partly influenced
by non-Jewish criticism, whether to take this Rashi literally. Chizkuni and
others clearly understood it literally, while Maharshal and others took the
opposite approach.
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On Sun, Oct 03, 2021 at 03:54:48PM +0200, torahmike wrote:
> https://www.jstor.org/stable/4131671

> To summarize, it became a big debate among commentators, partly influenced
> by non-Jewish criticism, whether to take this Rashi literally. Chizkuni and
> others clearly understood it literally, while Maharshal and others took the
> opposite approach.

RGS discussed this same article on TM
<https://www.torahmusings.com/2007/10/adams-mating-with-animals>.

I commented then that I think Lawee is not taking care to distinguish
between those commentators that understood Rashi as talking historically,
and those who wrote in the same language as Rashi. For example, the
Mizrachi <https://www.sefaria.org/Mizrachi%2C_Genesis.4.1.1> may be
elaborating how well the the medrash Rashi cites fits more of the story,
analyzing it within its own terms. And the whole question of whether
the medrash created the metaphor or it is a bit of history with symbolic
content has nothing to do with the Mizrachi's analysis.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 There's only one corner of the universe
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   you can be certain of improving,
Author: Widen Your Tent      and that's your own self.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF             - Aldous Huxley

Bava Batra 60b seems to imply (by the comparable reactions) that the
destruction of the temple was not as bad as the harsh decrees of Rome
(against torah study and mitzvot.) Your thoughts?

________________________________

Brachot 58B says a dead person is not forgotten from the heart for 12 months whereas Moed Katan 8b says 30 days. How do omnisignificers deal with this?


KT
Joel Rich
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