Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 101

Wed, 15 Dec 2021

• 1. Repeating during davening (Michael Poppers)
• 2. Re: Repeating during davening (Akiva Miller)
• 3. Re: Repeating Words (Arie Folger)
• 4. Re: kavod sefer torah (Akiva Miller)
• 5. Re: Prayer in Temple Times (Micha Berger)
• 6. ev mlachim byad hashem (Rich, Joel)
• 7. haminhag pashut? (Rich, Joel)
• 8. Medications On Shabbos (Prof. L. Levine)

In Avodah V39n100, R'Micha responded:
> I consider one popular tune to the pasuq of Zekhariah said after
Aleinu* particularly Xian <
and RZS responded:
> The dominant avoda zara in this country does exactly that. <
Certainly, there's an issue with messing up a *pasuq*, conceivably singing
"shmo" about each of one's devotional objects to the extent that the
verse's last word is an afterthought; as opposed to when one says a *pasuq*
properly, up to and including "H' echad," and then reiterates, "Echad hu
Eloqeinu."  As for what the "dominant avoda zara" in the US "does," if for
argument's sake we agree w/ RZS's statement, I would ask why a recent
generation sought to be more holy than all the previous generations living
under actual Catholic (or similar) rule for whom the SHaTZ saying "Echad hu
Eloqeinu" was not an issue.
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.
I cited some examples where an author initially repeats himself
deliberately, for reasons of meaning, emphasis, rhetoric, and the like. It
might have been a logistical error on my part to do that, as I see from the
responses that this may have led the conversation away from my real
question. So let's get back on track:

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> The AhS OC 338:8 ... has a problem with the whole turning tefillah into
> a drawn out performance, which he takes for granted is a distraction from
> the primary goal. "Maybe in truth there is no prohibition in it, but it
> is good before G-d to flee from it.
> ...
> Shu"t Mahara"m Shiq #31 -- you don't stop him mid-tefillah, but kol
> hamosif goreia, so you must teach him to stop.

I think the essence of my question is: Why are the repetitions in Hallel
exempted from this?

Whoever it was that decided to repeat lines which Dovid Hamelech did NOT
repeat, why did they do it, and what was the motivation?

Was it for reasons other than turning it into a drawn-out performance? Why
is it not a case of kol hamosif goreia?

Does anyone know the history of this aspect of Hallel? I do realize how
difficult it must be to research our pre-Mishnaic liturgy. But I have often
been very impressed by the knowledge of our listmembers, and I'm hoping
someone can illuminate this for me. Thanks in advance!

Akiva Miller

PS: My question was originally directed at those communities who initiated
that repetition, at some point in time between Dovid Hemelech's writing of
Tehillim 118, and the documentation of the repetition by the Mishna. But
remember that the Mishna testified to two different practices: repeating
the pesukim, and saying it straight through, with the admonition that each
should continue doing what it's been doing. I've now realized that at some
point between the Mishna and today, this practice became accepted by
everyone world over. As far as I know, there is no community which refrains
from repeating those pesukim today. Which means that either (a) the
communities who said it straight through died out, or (b) the practice of
repeating was accepted worldwide, despite the ruling of the Mishna not to
do so. How could this happen, unless drawn-out performances (and splitting
pesukim in the middle) might actually be a GOOD thing?
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RMB wrote:
> I consider one popular tune to the pasuq of Zekhariah said after
> Aleinu* particularly Xian:

>    Vene'emar:
>    Vehayah H' leMelekh al kol ha'aretz
>    bayom hahu, bayom hahu
>    yihyeh H' echad
>    ushemo, ushemo, ushemo echad.

After a friend pointed out many years ago that the triple ushmo recitation
is disconcerting, I started singing ushmo-o-o. It works well. Now I will
lengthen bayom hahu to switch to a single recitation, too.

-- 
Mit freundlichen Gren,
Yours sincerely,
Arie Folger,
Visit my blog at http://rabbifolger.net/

.
R' Joel Rich asked:
> The Tzitz Eliezer (12:40) outlines (what I thought to be) normative psak
> in kavod sefer torah, that people should go to kiss the sefer torah and
> not vice versa. He calls upon the Rabbis to educate their communities who
> will be happy to follow. So why is this not done? (Me ? more so in outside
> minyanim where the sefer is on the table and then is walked around back to
> the table?)

I think I understand the ideal situation, but putting it into practice is
tricky. Let's take, for example, Mishne Brura 149:7:

> Similarly, when it [the Sefer Torah] is removed from the Aron, it is a
> mitzvah for whomever it passes, to accompany it to the bimah.

Those words are straightforward enough, but how do we implement it? In a
large shul, perhaps the first dozen people will be able to accompany the
Sefer properly, but how close can the others get? And in a small minyan,
such as described by RJR, if the Sefer is simply picked up and put down, no
one at all will be able to accompany it.

My own practice is that when I am the chazan, I carry the Sefer along
whatever route is the practice in that shul, without deviating a bit. I do
not extend the Sefer to one side or the other as I see many others do. The
Sefer Torah doesn't go out of its way for anyone! When I am *not* the
chazan, I try to get all the way to the aisle so that I can kiss the Sefer
without it going out of its way for me; if I see that I won't be able to
get close enough (in a derech eretz manner, of course), then I just stay in
my place and "throw" a kiss.

Akiva Miller
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On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 11:54:31AM +0200, David Cohen via Avodah wrote:
> Prof. Shumlamit Elizur has made the case that the original Shmoneh Esrei
> (the one that took the "chasidim harishonim" an hour to say) was
> significantly longer than either of those, and that what we are used to
> saying nowadays is actually the condensed version, the "me'ein shmoneh
> esrei" referred to by R' Yehoshua and R' Akiva in the mishna...

How then does he explain the need to spend an hour getting back to the
real world afterward?

Saying more at the same pace we do... Would it be the kind of experience
need so much cool-down? The warm-up and cool-down times really argue
for R' Aryeh Kaplan's assumption that their davening was a meditative
experience far far more so than the length of time they spent davening.

Which would mean fewer words, said with far more time and intent
per word. Maybe something in between -- a somewhat longer Amidah,
but not nearly so much longer as to account for the majority of the
time difference.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 When memories exceed dreams,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   The end is near.
Author: Widen Your Tent                      - Rav Moshe Sherer
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

In terms of practical application, does lev mlachim byad hashem have an
impact on our actions or is it still we do our hishtadlut and HKBH controls
the results?
KT
Joel Rich


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I've noticed that sometimes the Aruch Hashulchan will say "haminhag pashut"
and sometimes "Kdamnuni (it appears to me) haminhag." I wonder what his
algorithm was for these categorizations.

KT
Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
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From

https://torah.org/torah-portion/weekly-halacha-5758-vayechi/
Medications On Shabbos ? Torah.org<https://torah.org/torah-portion/weekly-halacha-5758-vayechi/>
FOOTNOTES. 1. There are different opinions as to when a child is no longer
treated as a ?patient not dangerously ill?. Some (Chazon Ish O.C. 59:4;
Harav S.Z. Auerbach in Nishmas Avrohom 328:54; Harav S.Y. Elyashiv in Eis
la-Ledes, pg. 57) quote the age of 2-3; others (Tzitz Eliezer 8:15-12) say
six, while yet others (Minchas Yitzchak 1:78) are lenient till the age of
nine.
torah.org
Behold your father is ill (48:1)
Until Yaakov fell ill, no one was sick?(Bava Metzia 87a<https://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Metzia.87a?lang=he-en&;utm_source=torah.org&utm_medium=sefaria_linker>)


One of several Rabbinical decrees that our Sages enacted in order to guard
the sanctity of Shabbos concerns the use of medications. In the opinion and
experience of the Rabbis, easy access to medicine may lead to the
transgression of Shabbos Labors such as ?grinding? (when preparing certain
medications) or ?smoothing? (when applying certain medications). While
issuing the decree, however, the Rabbis were bound by the halachic
principle of being as lenient as possible with those suffering pain or
distress. Thus, they established guidelines for determining when it is
permitted to take medication on Shabbos and when it is not. In the
following discussion, we will list several common conditions which normally
require medication and how they are dealt with on Shabbos.

See the above URL for a list of ailments and conditons.

YL
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