Avodah Mailing List

Volume 39: Number 102

Mon, 20 Dec 2021

• 1. Re: ev mlachim byad hashem (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: ev mlachim byad hashem (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: A "Coal" of Metal (Chana Luntz)
• 4. Re: ev mlachim byad hashem (Rich, Joel)
• 5. Re: A "Coal" of Metal (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: ev mlachim byad hashem (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: A "Coal" of Metal (Chana Luntz)
• 8. Re: ev mlachim byad hashem (Micha Berger)

.
R' Joel Rich asked:
> In terms of practical application, does lev mlachim byad hashem have an
> impact on our actions or is it still we do our hishtadlut and HKBH
controls
> the results?

Could you please rephrase the question? I don't see any conflict or
difference between the reisha and the seifa. "lev mlachim byad hashem"
concerns the melech, and "we do our hishtadlut" concerns the citizens.
(And, of course, HKBH will control the results whether we do our hishtadlut
or not.)

Perhaps you are suggesting that "lev mlachim byad hashem" is telling me
*not* to vote, because Hashem will control everything anyway? If that's the
hava mina, then this is merely one of many examples where one could ask
whether hishtadlus is required. If I'm not going to bother voting because
Hashem will direct the government anyway, then I should also not bother to
go to work because Hashem already decided my salary on Rosh Hashana.

Akiva Miller
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On 14/12/21 22:52, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> In terms of practical application, does lev mlachim byad hashem have an 
> impact on our actions or is it still we do our hishtadlut and HKBH 
> controls the results?

I would say "lev melachim" is why tefilla, teshuva, tzedaka, taanis, 
etc. are appropriate in such cases.  Without it we might say that while 
in most cases we rely on Hashem for help and then we do our hishtadlus 
to create a natural way for that help to come about, in a case involving 
lev melachim there is no point in asking Hashem for help, since the king 
has bechira and therefore kiveyachol it is not biydei shamayim to help 
us.  We should rely primarily on shtadlanus and only ask Hashem for help 
along the way, e.g. that our plane should make it safely to its 
destination, that we can put together a suitable  bribe, etc.  Or maybe 
we should only pray that the king should die and a better king succeed 
him.  Lev Melachim tells us that kings don't have true bechira, and 
therefore we should treat political troubles the same way we do natural 
ones, relying primarily on Hashem and using hishtadlus only as a channel 
for His help.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone health, wealth, and
z...@sero.name       happiness in 5782

RMB writes:

<<The following is wrong, just explaining my hava amina: I would have
thought that heating metal to anneal it would be bishul. You're changing
something using heat, which sure sounds like cooking. Whereas heating it
until it glows would be havarah, as the physics isn't /that/ different
whether it is air glowing or metal glowing.>>

Are you sure that the Rambam isn't assuming that when you heat metal to
anneal it you are not in fact making it glow?  Maybe he would say - well of
course, that is just how it is done.

Whereas in the case of it going to a "coal" or melting, is it necessarily
the case that it is glowing?  Coal I would have thought of as blackening,
not necessarily glowing.  And it has to be a form of blackening that is
useful, otherwise it is destructive.

Because if in fact the Rambam is making assumptions about the way annealing
worked in his day (to glowing) and assuming that the focus on melting or
making a coal is on the product, and it doesn't necessarily need to glow,
then wouldn't it just work?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Regards

Chana

So should the statement be  "lev kol adam byad hashem" ?
Kt
Joel rich
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On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 02:05:04PM -0000, Chana Luntz wrote:
> Whereas in the case of it going to a "coal" or melting, is it necessarily
> the case that it is glowing? ...

Yes, I am taking it for granted that the word "gacheles" refers to
something that glows. I used the word "coal", but had I thought of the
word at the time, I think I would have used "ember".

And "an ember of metal" would be glowing hot metal, no?

So I went to Jastrow, to see if I just misunderstood the word. He has
"burning coal".
https://www.sefaria.org/Jastrow%2C_%D7%92%D6%B7%D6%BC%D7%97%D6%B6%D7%9C%D6%B6%D7%AA

I think I assumed this translation because of usages like "shalheves
qeshurah begacheles" (Seifer haYetzirah 1:7, and consequently a very
used idiom in Sifrei Qabbalah).

And in halachic discussion too, gacheles and shalheves often come in a
contrasting pair. Like in neziqim, or tiltuls beShabbos.

Shemuel 2:14:7 has "vekhibu es gachalti", which seems to take for
granted that a gacheles is something you can extinguish.

Yechezqeil 1:13 describes the Chayos as being kegachalei eish. Although
that could be argued either way -- does eish elaborate on gechalim,
or does is distinguish from gechalim that could have been not of eish?

I am not sure where else to take a discussion of the pashut translation
of a word.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Every second is a totally new world,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   and no moment is like any other.
Author: Widen Your Tent              - Rabbi Chaim Vital
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On 15/12/21 10:37, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> So should the statement be ?"lev kol adam byad hashem" ?
> 

No, because most people's -- certainly most Jews' -- hearts are not 
bidei shamayim.  Even according to the Baal Shem Tov's shita of Strong 
Hashgacha Pratis, which has now become universally accepted, people's 
*actions* are biydei shamayim but not their hearts.  But "lev melachim" 
tells us that kings' hearts are, i.e. they do not have genuine bechira.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing everyone health, wealth, and
z...@sero.name       happiness in 5782

RMB writes:

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 02:05:04PM -0000, Chana Luntz wrote:
> Whereas in the case of it going to a "coal" or melting, is it 
> necessarily the case that it is glowing? ...

<<Yes, I am taking it for granted that the word "gacheles" refers to
something that glows. I used the word "coal", but had I thought of the word
at the time, I think I would have used "ember".

And "an ember of metal" would be glowing hot metal, no?>>

I wasn't necessarily thinking about the general case, but about the Rambam's
usage, because the problem seems to lie in the Rambam.  And note there is
yet another key Rambam  at Hilchot Shabbat perek 12 in halacha 2 where
actually uses the term gacheles of metal and makes it clear that is
extinguishing:

????? ?? ???? ????, ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ?? ??, ??? ?????
???? ?? ???? ????, ??? ?????? ???? ????, ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??
????? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?????, ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????
???? ????? ????, * ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??
????,

"One who extinguishes any amount is chayav, whether he extinguishes a candle
or whether he extinguishes a coal of wood, but a coal of metal he is patur,
and if he intends to harden it, he is chayav, because so the polishers of
iron do when they heat the iron until they make coals and they extinguish
them in water in order to harden them, and this is the hardening that makes
one chayav, and it is a toldah of extinguishing, and it is permitted to
extinguish a coal of metal in the public domain in order that it should not
injure the multitude."

So you seem to have: melt metal (to work it) or heat it to a coal  to quench
in water (bishul);
Extinguish a coal of metal  patur, unless in order to strengthen it, then
chayav kibui
Heats to quench in water (without the reference to a coal) mavir

I agree with you it is very odd.  And it seems even odder if you then see
that it is only extinguishing if you intend to strengthen it, otherwise it
is patur (but if you are extinguishing it aren't you for sure acknowledging
it was lit?).   That seems to make the AHS explanation also difficult.
Somehow trying to understand that coal in the Rambam's language might mean
something other than glowing hot metal seemed the best way around, say it
means only blackened metal (which because it is hot, is still considered
kibui). I am not saying it works with the classic understanding of the term,
just that how else do you explain the Rambam? 


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Regards

Chana

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 03:52:02AM +0000, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> In terms of practical application, does lev mlachim byad hashem have
> an impact on our actions or is it still we do our hishtadlut and HKBH
> controls the results?

First thing I would do is limit the meaning of the statement.

A number of rishonim struggle with "hikhbadti es libo" and what happened
to Par'oh's free will. Since Par'oh was Melekh Mitzrayim, it seem they
do not assume that "beyad Hashem" means that Hashem normally controls
their choices. Instead, the Rambam says losing access to teshuvah was
part of the punishment / consequence of Par'oh's level of sin. Ramban
and Seforno talk about the need to balance the convincing power of the
miracles of the makkos. Others speak of the historical need for Yetzias
Mitzrayim... But who says it's because he was a king?


There are less absolute ways for A to be under B's control. For example,
Hashem could guide a king's experience to change the plausibility of his
making certain choices. Like when you make a decision because you "just
happened" to overhear to people talking about something that triggered
a memory.

Free will is the choice to go left or right when in a place in the maze
where you have two choices. It isn't the ability to go through maze walls.
Nimshal: our free will doesn't include the choice of flying by flapping
my arms.

One of the differences between a king and a commoner is that kings
decide fates of nations. Commoners can do, but it's not our norm. So,
far more of what a king does is subject to hashgachah kelalis, not only
hashgachah peratis.

(And, perhaps the statement has shades of grey -- the more one is a
leader, the more one's heart is in His control)


Then there is the question of prayer: If Hashem will do gam zu letovah
either way, can baqashos actually change the outcome? Sometimes the
answer is "yes" because the challenge was to illicit the baqashos
("mipenei sheHQBH nis'aveh lesfilasan shel tzadiqim"), to motivate you
to turn to Him.

So, why try to fight a king with a bad plan? Maybe the whole point of
the crisis is to push you to fight for what's right. And once you do,
the point of continuing the challenge evaporates.

Oh, and while universal hashgachah is the dominant belief now -- whether
the Ramchal's, Baal Shem Tov's or the Gra's version -- it doesn't mean
that people believe it trumps free will. After all, the causality is less
like a chain than like chain mail. Every event comes from a convergance
of factors, and regardless of what I try, whether or not I accomplish
what I intended depends on all those other causes. I can only try,
success is in His hands. And so, there can be hashgachah on what yenem
experiences regardless of what I plan and try to do to him.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 It's never too late
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   to become the person
Author: Widen Your Tent      you might have been.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                    - George Eliot


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