Avodah Mailing List

Volume 40: Number 20

Sat, 19 Mar 2022

• 1. Re: Should Shiurim be Corrected to Archeological Data (Micha Berger)
• 2. Machtzit hashekel (Joel Rich)
• 3. who determines norms? (Joel Rich)
• 4. To Drink or Not To Drink? A Halachic Analysis of Getting Drunk on Purim. (Prof. L. Levine)
• 5. Reading During the Day vs at Night (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: To Drink or Not To Drink? A Halachic Analysis of Getting Drunk on Purim. (Micha Berger)
• 7. Saviv vs S'chor S'chor (Akiva Miller)

Back on Thu, Feb 21, 2019 at 1:57:10PM EST, I wrote (and other versions
in other years):

> R Chaim Naeh's ammah is 48cm. According to the plaque at Chizqiyahu's
> Water Tunnel <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siloam_inscription> (BTW,
> in kesav Ivri), they dug a canal of 1,200 amos. As the tunnel is 533 m
> long, that's somewhere between 42.6 and 46.3 cm. (As 1,200 is a round
> number, I figure the actual number of amos is somewhere between 1,150 and
> 1,250 amos. Thus the range.)
> 
> So that's one piece of archeological data that says that RCN's shitah for
> the ammah is too BIG.
> 
> Of course, if shiurim are supposed to drift, either because of the "law is
> law" theory or because an ammah is based on contemporary peoples' arms,
> then this may simply mean that the ammah during bayis sheini was lohnger
> than it was in Chizqiyahu's day.

I mentioned this in a Facebook post about a news story in which a
Turkish official said they were returning the inscription, which was
taken during the Ottoman Empire. Since denied by Turkey.

Someone pointed out to me that on wikipedia
<https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%91%D7%AA_%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%97>,
they mention academic opinions that the 1,200 ammah was in amos of 5
tefachim, so you would need to add 20%.

If so, the implied ammah would be between 51.1 and 55.6 cm. Or, 20.1"
to 21.9". Which would match the ammah of the AhS and RMF. (A very
satisfying result for someone who learns AhS Yomi.)

HOWEVER, if you look at the gemara, it seems that the 5 tefach ammah was
only used for keili (R Yehudah) or even only some of the keilim (R Meir).
The BHMQ itself was measured in 6 tefach amos. So why would the tunnel,
which is also a land measurement, be in 5 tefach amos?

I can't find the cited articles to see their argument.


Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 When we are no longer able to change a situation
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   -- just think of an incurable disease such as
Author: Widen Your Tent      inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)

J?ve heard R? H Schacter say on a number of occasions that if the budget
for the communal sacrifices in the beit hamikdash was projected to exceed
the sum collected with the machzit hashekel, then the amount of the
?machzit? was increased. Anyone know the source for this?



NOTE: Since I wrote this on the blog, I found the answer - The source on
the greater amount is from the ravad (and kesef mishna) on rambam hilchot
shkalim 1:6.  I'm not sure the rambam would agree

see also the ramban on shmot 30:12 who seems to have a somewhat parallel
approach - the karbanot were a somewhat different shekel collection

kt

Joel rich
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I once posted: I've never really resolved myself how I feel about the
concept that the first people who do something are sinners but if enough of
them do it becomes the norm and acceptable. Thoughts?

I'm adding sources to consider:

[Perishah YD 182:5]
????? ???? ??? ???? ???
(?) ??? ????? ???????? ???? ??????. ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????
???? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????
??? ??? ????? ????:


[Shu"t haRashba cheilek 4 #90]
??"? ????"? ??? ? ???? ?
... ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?????.
??"? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? /?"? ????????/ ?????? ??? ???.

KT
Joel Rich

From
https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/9792


Who doesn?t love Purim? This annual Yom Tov extravaganza, featuring joyous
dancing, Mishloach Manos, colorful costumes, and of course, the Megillah
reading, is the favorite time of year for quite a few of us. However, for
many, it is the unique Mitzva to get drunk that they relish. Since Purim is
described in the Megillah as a day of Mishteh (referring to a wine
feast)[1]<https://ohr.edu/9792#_edn1> and
the Purim turnabout miracle occurred at such wine feasts, there is a rare
dispensation from the norm, and an apparent obligation to drink
wine.[2]<https://ohr.edu/9792#_edn2>
Hopefully, the wine will enable one to experience a sublime, spiritual
Purim.[3]<https://ohr.edu/9792#_edn3>

Yet, as is well known, uninhibited drinking may also unfortunately result
in catastrophic consequences. If so, what exactly is the Mitzva of drinking
on Purim? This essay proposes to find out.


See the above URL for much more.


YL

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Some research motivated by something I finally noticed in Mishnah Megillah
1:1. People from kefarim would be reading megillah on the market day. So
it hits me -- doesn't this imply that they only heard megillah during
the day, when they were in shul Mon or Thu morning?

Which got me looking at the origins and relative priority of daytime
and nighttime leining.

R Yehoshua b Levi (Megillah 4a) holds that the megillah is to be read
at night and lishnosah during the day.

Originally his students take this to mean leined at night and studied
during the day. Then R Chiya bar Abba clarifies that this is lishnosah
in the sense of repeated.

But there is no mention of megillah reading at night in the mishnah.
2:4-5 discuss when to read during the day. Mishnah 4 ends by saying the
time starts at amud hashachar, and mishnah 5 continues by saying the
whole day is kosher.

Then mishnah 6 seques into the length of time for mitzvos that are done
at night, but megillah reading -- our original topic, doesn't come up.

More, the Tosefta 2:4 explicitly says, "qeri'ah balaylah lo yatza yedei
chovaso"!

Therefore, the Turei Even (on 4a) concludes that leining during the day
dates back to the generation of Esther, but leining at night is a later
taqanah by Chazal.

The Binyan Shelomo (#58) goes further, saying it was RYbL in my opening
citation made that taqanah! (IMHO, it would explain why there was
confusion about what he meant. There was no memory from previous yeares.)

R Zvi Pesach Frank (Har Zvi OC 2:120) quotes the Binyan Shelomo and
rejects it. He cannot understand why there would suddenly be a need for
this taqanah 600 years later, when the Sanhedrin saw no need during all
the glory days of the BHMQ.

He brings a proof from the Ritva (4a) who addresses what I finally
noticed, and said that villagers would try to read the Megillah at home
the night of Purim.

Whereas RZPF quotes the Ran (1a) who says chazal's taqanah was to exempt
villagers from having to hear the megillah at night.

Both presume that nighttime reading was as old as daytime. Although I
would think that both are giving priority to daytime reading: the Ritva
by saying that nighttime reading wasn't important enough to get some
workaround, the way daytime reading did, and the Ran by saying that
Chazal thought the nighttime reading could be sacrificed, but not the day.

Ritva suggests that the villagers would try their best to read
the Megillah at home on the night of Purim (Ritva, Megillah 4a).
Ran suggests that the sages may have given the villagers an exemption
from the nighttime obligation (Ran, Megillah 1a).

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
http://www.aishdas.org/asp    'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
Author: Widen Your Tent       'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                   - Rav Dovid Lifshitz zt"l

An observation about pesaq and negi'os...

When you're in yeshiva, you spend all day studying texts, so it
is unsurprising that your attitude toward halakhah gets kind of
textualist. And so, the rise of yeshiva attendance created such new
practices from widespread standing to answer Qaddish to finding someone
else to say VaYekhulu with on a Friday night. (BTW, is it closer to eidus
to say it together with your father or brother than to say it alone? And
wouldn't a single family in shul invalidate the whole kat of eidim saying
it on time together?)

So, if people were consistent, when it came to drinking on Purim, the
yeshivos would follow the Rama and do what R Chaim Brisker did -- have
a little bronfen, fall asleep, and while asleep one is "ad delo yada".

But no. When it comes to getting drunk on Purim, the texts and Brisk-keit
go out the window and suddenly anything but minhag avos is declared
too artificial.

Negi'os, taavah. "Ki hashochad ya'aveir einei chakhamim".

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 People were created to be loved.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   Things were created to be used.
Author: Widen Your Tent      The reason why the world is in chaos is that
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    things are being loved, people are being used.

When the Chumash uses the word "saviv" (samech beis yud beis, usually
translated as "around"), Onkelos usually translates this as "s'chor s'chor"
(samech ches vav resh).  (Examples abound. Vayikra 8 has it in pesukim 15,
19, and 24.)   Perhaps he even does this all time - I haven't noticed any
exceptions, but if someone is aware of such, please let me know.

My question is about the meaning of the single word "s'chor", and why does
Onkelos double it so often. My wild guess is that "s'chor" indicates a mere
circular motion, while "s'chor s'chor" indicates a complete circle; if so,
Onkelos is (as usual) providing a valuable perush on the precise
implications of "saviv" (especially if there indeed cases where he opts for
just a single "s'chor"). But that's just a wild guess.

Can anyone offer other ideas?

Akiva Miller
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