Avodah Mailing List

Volume 40: Number 35

Wed, 18 May 2022

• 1. Re: When early shabbos is Rosh Chodesh (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: When early shabbos is Rosh Chodesh (Zev Sero)
• 3. Is it permissible to make a wedding on Lag B?Omer at night? (Prof. L. Levine)
• 4. diaspora psychology? (Joel Rich)
• 5. Segulot thoughts? (Joel Rich)
• 6. Re: Segulot thoughts? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Is it permissible to make a wedding on Lag B?Omer at night? (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Is it permissible to make a wedding on Lag B?Omer at night? (Zev Sero)

.
I wrote:
> PS: Just for the record, I'm still wondering: ...
> 2) Why Shabbos wins on Erev Shabbos Chazon,
>    but Shabbos loses on Asara B'Teves.

R' Michael Poppers and I were discussing this over Shabbos. One of the
ideas that came up was "b'etzem hayom hazeh" - Given that we fast when
Asara B'Teves falls on Shabbos itself, it should not surprise us that when
Asara B'Teves falls on Friday, we have no permission to eat until the day
is completely over.

But then I realized that this was misleading and distracting. Asara B'Teves
does not need any particular pasuk or limud, because it's not an
*exception* to the rule. Rather it is an *example* of the rule, the rule
being that "Kabalas Shabbos doesn't matter - we use the calendar." There
are only a very few exceptions to this rule, and I will list those
exceptions later in this post. But first, I'd like to list some of the many
examples of this rule:

(1) To me, the classic case is the baby boy who was born on Friday evening
after the whole city has said Shabbos Maariv, Shabbos Kiddush, and Retzeh
in Birkas Hamazon. If the baby was born before Bein Hashmashos, then his
bris will be the following Friday.

(2) Shofar - If a shofar was finally found on the second day of RH, but
after the city accepted Shabbos, it can (and must) still be blown.

(3) Sukkah - If one began Shmini Atzeres early, eating outside the sukkah
is still forbidden - because it is still Sukkos - even for those who do not
eat in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres (i.e., Israelis, Chassidim).

(4) Chometz - If Shabbos is Motzei Pesach (as it was in Israel this year),
an early acceptance of Shabbos doesn't allow one to eat chometz (or
kitniyos) until Pesach is actually over.

(5) Sefiras Haomer - If one forgot to count sefira on Thursday night, and
still forgot all day Friday, he can still count on Friday afternoon even
after accepting Shabbos.

(6) Eruv Tavshilin - When Yom Tov is Friday, the MB recommends beginning
Shabbos early and eating the seudah in daylight, because this means that
your cooking was NOT a case of "cooking on Yom Tov for after Yom Tov", but
was actually a case of "cooking on Yom Tov for that Yom Tov itself."

(7) Asara B'Teves - Like all the cases above, where the halachic day
remains Friday all the way until Vadai Laila, so too here, and one may not
break the fast until dark.

(8) Hefsek Tahara is another good example, since it can be done after
Kabalas Shabbos if it was forgotten earlier. (But due to various
technicalities, IIRC this permission might extend only to sunset, and not
into Bein Hashmashos.)

The most glaring exception to all this, of course, is Tosfos Shabbos
itself, along with Tosfos Yom Kippur and Tosfos Yom Tov. These are the
special case, in which we invoke Kedushas Hayom such that the halachic
ramifications of the day take effect. It's a sort of neder, I suppose, in
that I was allowed to do melacha before, but now I am forbidden, because of
my personal acceptance of the day's kedusha.

At this point I must ask: Why does Tefilah (and its subset, Birkas Hamazon)
follow the Kedushas Hayom rules, instead of the much more common Calendar
Rules rules? My first guess was that Chazal set up Tefila like that from
the very beginning, because it would be silly and/or contradictory to make
Kiddush on Friday afternoon and follow it with a Weekday Shmoneh Esreh.

But I think that's a mistake, and my proof is that the Kedushas Hayom rules
apply even when there is no Tosfos Kedusha. I am not aware of any mitzva to
begin Rosh Chodesh early, and yet, if a shul chooses to have early
Mincha-Maariv at Plag in the middle of the week, on an evening preceding
RC, they DO include Yaaleh V'Yavo in Maariv even though there is no
Kedushas Hayom to speak of.

I don't have any explicit source for the preceding paragraph, but it is
easily inferred from MB 424:2 which speaks of a similar minyan on Motzaei
Rosh Chodesh: They include Yaaleh V'Yavo at Mincha, but they omit it at
Maariv, and if someone eats a Hamotzi meal while the sun is still above the
horizon, he will omit Yaaleh V'Yavo from Birkas Hamazon specifically
because he omitted it from Maariv. Note that this is despite the fact that
(from a Calendar Rules perspective) Kedushas Rosh Chodesh is in full force,
and there's no conflict or contradiction with any nighttime halachos.

So why don't we follow the Calendar Rules rules in these cases? We can't be
following the Kedushas Hayom rules, because we're deliberately *ignoring*
the Kedushas Hayom when benching after Maariv on Rosh Chodesh afternoon.

I would like to suggest that what I wrote about "Kedushas Hayom rules" was
an error, and we should actually working with "Plag Hamincha rules".

According to Gemara Brachos 26-27, the Rabanan hold that Mincha may be said
all afternoon until the "night" (which we will not define here) after which
Maariv may be said, while R' Yehuda says that Mincha may be said only until
Plag Hamincha, at which point Maariv may begin. And the Gemara concludes
that you can choose whichever you prefer.

I used to think that this was simply a dispute about the rules for Mincha
and Maariv. Perhaps it is deeper than that. Perhaps Chazal took this to
refer to all of Hilchos Tefila, including Birkas Hamazon and all other
brachos as well. If so, then a person who davens an early (post-Plag)
Maariv on a Tuesday - regardless of whether this is Erev RC or Motzei RC -
then his brachos at supper must be in accordance with R' Yehuda. We now
have two sets of consistent rules: "Calendar Rules" for just about
everything, and "Plag Hamincha Rules" for all aspects of davening, not just
Mincha/Maariv.

I will leave it like that for now, but I must say that it would make more
sense if R' Yehuda felt that the calendar actually changes dates at Plag
Hamincha. Could such a thing be possible? Is there a gemara somewhere in
which R' Yehuda says that Shabbos begins at Plag on Friday, even without an
early Kabalas Shabbos?

We are still left with the problem of Erev Shabbos Chazon, in which we have
a halacha (eating meat/wine) which should logically follow the Calendar
Rules rules, but which we actually relax for one who has accepted Shabbos
early. I will now suggest that there is a third category (besides Calendar
Rules and the Plag Hamincha Option), namely Aveilus.

R' Marty Bluke wrote:

> An avel sitting shiva does not observe aveilus in public once he
> is mekabel shabbos. The explanation may be that this is unique
> to aveilus which is a kiyum shebalev. This kiyum shebalev is in
> direct contradiction to the essence of shabbos and therefore can't
> be imposed once shabbos has started.

This is complicated, and perhaps deserves its own thread. Looking through
ArtScroll's "Mourning in Halacha" by Rabbi Chaim Binyamin Goldberg, I see
several opinions about when the mourner may begin sitting on a chair or
wearing leather shoes on Friday. He lists three different views (not until
dark, from Mincha Ketana, from Plag Hamincha) in the main text of 28:3, and
even more in the footnotes - and none of them are "once he is mekabel
Shabbos" (with the possible exception of one view in the footnotes which
said "until candle lighting"). And in fact, regardless of how one's defines
"washing" in this context, if an avel is allowed to wash himself L'Kavod
Shabbos, this must obviously be prior to his Kabbalas Shabbos.

For an avel in Shiva to wear leather shoes, or to shower, prior to Kabalas
Shabbos, cannot be explained by any of the ideas suggested above. So it
must be that when these halachos were first set up, they included this
exceptional case from the beginning. Perhaps they did so for Erev Shabbos
Chazon as well.

Akiva Miller
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On 17/5/22 07:56, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> (4) Chometz - If Shabbos is Motzei Pesach (as it was in Israel this 
> year), an early acceptance of Shabbos doesn't allow one to eat 
> chometz?(or kitniyos) until Pesach is actually over.

And conversely, once Pesach *is* over one may eat chametz without 
hesitation, even though one is still in the middle of the seudah, may 
not do melacha, and will say yaaleh veyavo in benching.  Yomtov 
continues until one lets go of it, but the issur chametz goes away with 
the sun regardless.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing you a healthy season appropriate
z...@sero.name       to your hemisphere

From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis


Q. Is it permissible to make a wedding on Lag B?Omer at night?

A. The Shulchan Aruch (493:1) writes that haircuts are not permitted until
the morning of the 34th day of the Omer and Sefardim follow this position.
The Rema writes that Ashkenazic traditions allows haircuts the morning of
the 33rd day of the Omer. Ashkenazim follow the Rema. The Mishnah Berurah
(493:11) writes that according to Ashkenazic tradition, some are lenient
and allow haircuts the night of Lag B?omer, but the custom is to not permit
weddings at night. Nonetheless, many poskim maintain that we do not follow
this stringency. Igros Moshe (OC 1:159) and Sridei Aish (1:50) both write
that a wedding may be made the night of Lag B?omer. The prevalent custom is
that one may get married on the night of Lag B?Omer.

Rav Belsky, zt?l ruled that the chassan and the fathers of chassan and
kallah may shave even on the 32nd day of the Omer before shekiah. (See ????
????, Volume One, pages 109 ? 110)

YL
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From the Ami Museum (formerly beit hatfutzot)

The Jews of Babylonia did not regard themselves as exiles and made attempts
to locate sites of Jewish historical importance in their vicinity that
would actually testify to their local roots. That explains how they
?discovered? the furnace in which Abraham burned the idols, the gravesite
of Daniel the Prophet and other places. Babylonia received a renewed
geographical legal definition.

Against that backdrop various traditions also evolved in Babylonia such as
the claim that the synagogue in Nehardea was built out of stones taken from
the Temple in Jerusalem. There was even a widespread belief that in the
future after the coming of Messiach, all the Jews of the world would suffer
the birth pangs of the Messiah and only the Jews of Babylon would be exempt
from them.

(Me-Interesting assertion, I wonder the source. Any parallel with current
diaspora?)

KT
Joel Rich
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https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23780231221084775

Abstract
The authors analyze the 2020-2021 Chapman University Survey of American
Fears (n = 1,035), the most recent nationally representative survey to
examine fears of and beliefs about supernatural and paranormal phenomena,
including ghosts, hauntings, zombies, psychics, telekinesis, Bigfoot
or Sasquatch, Atlantis, and extraterrestrial visitation. This research
examines how supernatural beliefs vary by race/ethnicity, gender, and
education after adjustment for other demographic characteristics and
religiosity. There were five gender differences, such that women were
more likely than men to believe in or fear all nonmaterial or spiritual
supernatural phenomena, as well as Atlantis. People with a bachelor's
degree or higher were less likely to believe in extraterrestrial
visitation, hauntings, Bigfoot or Sasquatch, and Atlantis. There were also
six beliefs and fears for which racial/ethnic differences emerged. The
results highlight how gender, education, and race/ethnicity are strongly
related to complex belief systems, including supernatural phenomena.

KT
Joel Rich

Of course the big problem I have with segulos is that

- If they apply to non-mitzvos, they give yet another mechanism for
  someone getting something for reasons other than Hashem providing
  what is most appropriate for them. With no payoff, as they are not
  predictable enough to aid my own decision making process. (Unlike,
  say, physical causality.)

- Whereas if we are discussing a mitzvah, the whole discussion turns
  the mitzvah into "al menas leqabel peras." (Which is exactly what BB
  10b says the aku"m of the nations is all about.)


On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 02:29:42AM -0400, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/23780231221084775
> 
> Abstract
> The authors analyze the 2020-2021 Chapman University Survey of American
> Fears (n = 1,035)...

General comment about the topic... Whenever discussion of Jewish
superstition comes up, I think about the following:

The Bavli has numerous discussions of sheidim and maziqin, and even in
some places gets quite detailed. The Yerushalmi has at most once, the
endpoint of the decay of a qamqema is a "sheir", but there is speculation
that "sheir" may have originally been "sheid" (Shabbos 1:3, 8a).

This corresponds to culural differences of their host countries. The
Romans weren't nearly as into demonology as the Sassanids. In Bavel,
keeping away demons was a major concern.

Which fits Pesachim 110b, "kol deqafeid, qafdei bahadei". Zugos, which are
a sheid-related phenomenon, are only maqpidim are people who are mapqid
about them. So, living in a mileua where demons are taken seriously made
the Jews of Bavel more vulnerable.

If one takes the Rambam's route out of believing in them altogether,
it still doesn't imply assimilation. No more than contemporary Jews
believing the science that is current in our mileau.

Because what one culture calls superstition, another analyzes,
systemetizes, and just considers part of how the universe works. To them,
it's science. (The way the Ibn Ezra believed in astrology *because*
of Aristotilian rationalism.) Which would allow the Rambam to dismiss
Chazal's talk of sheidim as an obsolecent and disproven scientific theory.

To us, chi is superstition, but it too is treated in the East as a
science, no differently than the way a western scientist relates to
electromagnetic or gravitational fields. (To pick something science
posits from effects, but has no substance in and of itself.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 32nd day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   4 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Netzach sheb'Hod: What type of submission
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF               really results in dominating others?

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 12:18:09PM +0000, Prof. L. Levine via Avodah wrote:
> From today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis

>> The Mishnah Berurah (493:11) writes that according to Ashkenazic
>> tradition, some are lenient and allow haircuts the night of Lag B'omer,
>> but the custom is to not permit weddings at night. Nonetheless, many
>> poskim maintain that we do not follow this stringency.

The CC provides two sources that are lenient about the night of Lag
baOmer, both from Western Europe.(See MB s"q 15 and Be'eir Heitiev s"q 3,
or my post from last week
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol40/v40n033.shtml#06 .) When he says
Ashkenazic tradition, I believe he does NOT mean East Europeans.

Even though by his day chassidim were already making celebrations in
Rashb"i's memory the night of Lag baOmer.

I think this could be significant, because the Rama uses the language
"bemedinos eilu" when saying the mourning ends in the morning. He could
be specifically describing East European minhagim.

In any case, the MB s"q 11 which the OU page cites says that even the
some who are lenient are only lenient WRT haircuts.

>>                                                        Igros Moshe (OC
>> 1:159) and Sridei Aish (1:50) both write that a wedding may be made the
>> night of Lag B'omer. The prevalent custom is that one may get married
>> on the night of Lag B'Omer.

I don't know about the Seridei Eish, but the IM's reasoning is specific to
weddings. His position is consistent with the Rama's.

It is quite difficult to justify Sepharadim or East Europeans who daven
Ashkenaz (as opposed to Chassidish "Sfard" or Nusach Ari) attending Lag
baOmer bonfires with music, etc... Seems to be a break from minhag that
only hit the "Litvishe" yeshivos in the past couple of decades.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 32nd day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   4 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Netzach sheb'Hod: What type of submission
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF               really results in dominating others?

On 18/5/22 14:41, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> It is quite difficult to justify Sepharadim or East Europeans who daven
> Ashkenaz (as opposed to Chassidish "Sfard" or Nusach Ari) attending Lag
> baOmer bonfires with music, etc... Seems to be a break from minhag that
> only hit the "Litvishe" yeshivos in the past couple of decades.

It's my impression that the whole phenomenon of bonfires in chu"l really 
only caught on in the 5740s.  Traditionally it was only in Meron, I 
don't know when it spread to the rest of EY, but I don't think it was a 
significant thing in chu"l before 40 years ago.

-- 
Zev Sero            Wishing you a healthy season appropriate
z...@sero.name       to your hemisphere


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