Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 66

Mon, 11 Sep 2023

• 1. AI and Jewish Law (Broyde, Michael)
• 2. Re: AI and Jewish Law (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: AI and Jewish Law (Joel Rich)
• 4. Oxen (Joel Rich)
• 5. Re: Oxen (Micha Berger)

Micha,

Thank you for your comments.  A better link to the paper can be found here:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4520100

I welcome comments by anyone, and please email me if you wish.

I do not think that "how LLM think" is relevant to examining "what they think," actually and different people think in different ways.

I would welcome a real discussion of pro-forma requirements for psak and
being a posek.	Some of these issues are addressed in the last few pages of
the paper but they do need more.

MJB


Michael J. Broyde
 Professor of Law, School of Law

 Director, SJD Program, School of Law

 Berman Projects Director, Center for the Study of Law and Religion
Emory University School of Law
1301 Clifton Road, Atlanta, GA 30322
Voice: 404-727-7546; Email: mbro...@emory.edu; Cell and Whatsapp: 917-208-5011.

Emory home page: http://law.emory.edu/faculty-and-scholarship/faculty-profiles/broyde-profile.html

Personal blog as well as archive of books, articles, chapters, videos and posts: https://www.broydeblog.net/



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On Thu, Sep 07, 2023 at 02:37:15PM +0000, Broyde, Michael via Avodah wrote:
> I do not think that "how LLM think" is relevant to examining "what they
> think," actually and different people think in different ways.

My point in distinguishing between Artificial Intelligence or as they
now call it "Artificial General Intelligence" and what I would call
Simulated Intelligence is that I am questioning the whole idea that
there is any "thinking" to ask "why" or "how" about.

It is trained to string words together, not to reason about the world.
If there are any logical deductions, they are a side effect of the
words patterns (and meta-patterns and meta-meta-patterns, etc...)
it was trained on usually containing logical arguments.

What a LLM does is so different than thought, the question has to be
asked how and why something that models language can so seem to be
manipulating the ideas that language represents when it isn't.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The meaning of life is to find your gift.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   The purpose of life
Author: Widen Your Tent      is to give it away.
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                   - Pablo Picasso

> Thank you for your comments.  A better link to the paper can be found
> here: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4520100
> 
> 
> I would welcome a real discussion of pro-forma requirements for psak
> and being a posek.  Some of these issues are addressed in the last few
> pages of the paper but they do need more.
> 
????-
Thank you for sharing this. There?s just so much to discuss.

Let me just articulate one issue which I haven?t really seen discussed. As
I understand it AI assumes something along the lines of that the problem
was presented to the decider  and he went through an intellectual process
and came up with the result. While this may be often true I can?t help but 
of Rybs?s  comments in community, covenant and conversation where he says
he knew the result for the question concerning drafting chaplains, and just
had  to come up with a logic to support it. I think there?s a related story
of the. Chatam sofer telling his son to send the decision out, even if he
didn?t agree with the logic. The decision was right in any event. Of
course, this also gets to the argument for needing a live decider because
of heavenly intervention.


This whole topic would be great for a series of breakout groups. 
Kt
Joel rich
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Any historical information on how Jewish communities got oxen (castrated
bulls)? Purchase from non-Jews? Breeding?...

KT
Joel Rich

On Sun, Sep 10, 2023 at 05:02:49PM -0400, Joel Rich wrote:
> Any historical information on how Jewish communities got oxen (castrated
> bulls)? Purchase from non-Jews? Breeding?...

Maybe shor is broader in meaning than "ox" or "steer". Although there is
the word "par"...

Rava says a "shor" can even be a newborn (BQ 65b) but RH 10a says a par
is specifically 2 yr + 1 day old.

It may simply be that "shor" is a working animal, and "par" is food. And
since one can eat veal, but a calf doesn't pull a cart of plough too well,
the gemara draws halachic implications from the word chosen.

Sidenote:
Aramaic and Ugaritic have "tura", Phoenician "thur", which is where the
Greek "taurus" likely originated (acc. to Klein).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "The worst thing that can happen to a
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   person is to remain asleep and untamed."
Author: Widen Your Tent             - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF


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