Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 89

Wed, 20 Dec 2023

• 1. Re: Chamor defiled Dinah (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Re: tzedakah collector (Akiva Miller)
• 3. Re: RaMBaM omits Ness (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Chamor defiled Dinah (Micha Berger)
• 5. Clarification - Tallis Gadol Shev VeAl TaAseh (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 6. nichush (Joel Rich)
• 7. talmud torah is pushed off by another mitzva (Joel Rich)
• 8. Berachos on Minhagim (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 9. Re: Berachos on Minhagim (Micha Berger)
• 10. Fasting on Friday? Asarah B'Teves: Not Your Ordinary Fast DayDay (Prof. L. Levine)

.
R' Micha Berger wrote:

> R Yehudah (Menachos 29a) says that Shelomo melted the gold and
> spilled off the dross so many times, that is took him 1,000
> kikarim of initial gold to get something from which he would
> make the menorah.
> "Zahav tahor" means (b), gold with no other metals alloyed
> into it.

I looked at that gemara, and I don't see where it mentions "zahav tahor".
The refining process there is used for making "zahav sagur", which I
presume to be something else.

I'd like to suggest a different proof for the translation of "zahav tahor"
as "24K, 100%, unalloyed gold".

Namely: Is it possible for a blob of unformed metal to be tamei? I suspect
that gold cannot become tamei until it has been made into a keli, such
jewelry, or a coin, or a menorah. If so, then a requirement to use zahav
tahor *must* refer to metallic purity, simply because the ritual purity is
a given.

Can someone confirm or deny this guess about an unformed lump of metal?

If my guess is correct, then it opens the door to using the words tumah and
tahara in a colloquial context, and the possibility that "Chamor defiled
Dinah" in an antisocial manner, rather than invoking technicalities of
Tum'as Keri.

Akiva Miller
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.
R' Micha Berger wrote:

> My feeling is that while kavvanah trumps distubances, once
> you know the man is trying to raise money from you, you were
> already disturbed.
> Ignoring his plea is not continuing kavvanah, but a conscious
> decision about the collector. No less so than any other response.

True, the kavana is already broken.
True, the reaction and disturbance is a conscious decision.
But the conscious decision, at first, is merely an internal thought.

It has not yet manifested as any sort of external action. To do some sort
of action in response to the tzedaka collector would seem to be the same as
taking an action in response to the snake that has crawled onto one's leg.

And then I looked at that halacha. Mishne Berura 104:10 seems to hold that
even if the snake is non-poisonous, the only prohibition is speaking: One
must not ask a friend to remove the snake, but he may do so himself,
silently. If so, then by analogy, I suppose one WOULD be allowed to hand
some money to the tzedaka collector.

Akiva Miller
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On Wed, Dec 13, 2023 at 10:32:09AM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> RaMBam omits mentioning the miracle of the oil.

Or maybe hainu hakh... Maybe the point of the miracle of the oil wasn't
the oil or the menorah in-and-of themselves, but to flag (= neis)
Hashem's Presence during the war.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 11:30:43AM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> > R Yehudah (Menachos 29a) says that Shelomo melted the gold and
> > spilled off the dross so many times, that is took him 1,000
> > kikarim of initial gold to get something from which he would
> > make the menorah...
> 
> I looked at that gemara, and I don't see where it mentions "zahav tahor".
> The refining process there is used for making "zahav sagur", which I
> presume to be something else.

But why did Shelomo haMelekh need that level of refining done if "zahav
tahor" didn't mean the gold had to be as pure as possible?

But I since found the Ramban on Vayiqra 12:8, where he relates "bidmei
taharah" after birthing a boy to the "zahav tahor", saying both refer to
"niqayon... tzaruf umzuqaq". And then explains how the idea applies to
the new mother.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life isn't about finding yourself
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   Life is about creating yourself.
Author: Widen Your Tent                   - Bernard Shaw
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

Reb Micha proposes that not removing a Tallis Gadol which has become Passul
is technically not violating a Lav, a negative prohibition, but is
passively sidestepping an Asei BeSheiv VeAl TaAseh.

I wrote, "Chief Rabbi Eliyahu Bakshi-Doron, writes that after Chasimas
HaTalmud, we have no power to make binding decrees and he illustrates this
with the ruling that one need not undress in a public zone in order to
remove ones Tzitzis that have become disqualified - as Chazal describe
it - Human
Dignity is so great that it eclipses a Torah Prohibition. Rabbi BDoron
argues that even where there is no issue of disgrace to Human Dignity because
it is the Tallis Gadol that has become disqualified, the decree remains in
force, one ought not remove the Passul Tallis.

Although Reb Micha correctly argues that an Issur DeRabbanan can trump an Asei,
like missing the Mitzvah of shofarbecause Chazal decreed not to blow Shofar
in order to avoid the risk that some uninformed people may violate Shabbos
in order to fulfil the Mitzvah of Shofar; this is not comparable to the
case of Tzitzis.

Not hearing Shofar is certainly being passive. Let's say someone is
embarrassed to leave their home and will therefore miss hearing the Shofar,
THAT is a Shev VeAl TaAseh. And it can be argued that Chazal
permit/encourage this person to not hear Shofar.

On the other hand, walking about, and some would argue, even remaining in
the same place, whilst wearing a garment that HKBH instructs MUST have
Tzitzis, is very far from being a Shev VeAl TaAseh.
Not pressing a button that with inflict an electric shock, is far from
being in any way equivalent to leaving one's finger on the button that is
activating that electric shock, no?

Leaving one's Tallis Gadol in place is indeed a far greater show of force than
missing TeKias Shofar and Rabbi BDoron's argument is very powerful, we do
not posses these days any power to issue halachically binding communal or
private decrees.
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The gemara (chulin 95b) makes a very straightforward statement: ????? ??:
?? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ???? ???!
Numerous commentaries seek to reinterpret this statement (AIUI) based on a
presumption that it can?t mean that Eliezer and/or Yonatan employed
prohibited nichush. If that is the case, why would rav use them as examples
in the first place?
bsorot tovot
joel rich
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The Rambam (talmud torah 3:4) states that mitzvot talmud torah is pushed
off by another mitzva if the other mitzvah can?t be done by someone else.
What are the halachic considerations taken into account (by an individual
or community leadership) to determine the application to mitzvot that
require group effort? (eg protests, home front support efforts ?)
bsorot tovot
joel rich
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I posted
There are many additions found in the ShA that are beyond what is found
in the Gemara, neither are they in the RaMBaM and ought not be considered
binding as Halacha.

R Micha responded
Among Ashkenazim, the line is blurry as we see that we make berakhos - we
say we are sanctified and commanded "Asher QiDeShanu [Sheva Na] BeMitzvosav
VeTziVanu" even for the Minhag of lighting a Menorah in shul on Chanukah.

R Micha proposes that this Minhag is protected by Poreitz Geder YN; but is
it that important?
PGYN is not something that can be applied willy nilly, it is determined by
Chazal and one suspects we are no longer empowered to impose such sanctions.

Furthermore, does this mean that Minhagim for which we do not make such a
Berachah, are not protected with the same intensity, they are of a lower
calibre?

Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 09:54:46AM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> R Micha proposes that this Minhag is protected by Poreitz Geder YN; but is
> it that important?
> PGYN is not something that can be applied willy nilly, it is determined by
> Chazal and one suspects we are no longer empowered to impose such sanctions.

Oh, sorry, it is not my proposal.

Invoking PGYN to someone who breaks away from minhag dates back to the ge'onim.
and a number of sefarim imvoke it often in this context, like the Rama (eg YD 115:2),
the Taz (ad loc), the MA (496:4, etc...), the Chavos Yair, the AhS, the Noda BiYhidah
(I YD 54:2), etc, etc, etc...

Its applocation to "asher qidishanu bemitzvosav" to say Hashem told us we
must maintain our minhagim is at least as old as the Behag.

> Furthermore, does this mean that Minhagim for which we do not make such a
> Berachah, are not protected with the same intensity, they are of a lower
> calibre?

According to the Brisker Rav, yes - in that minhagim that contain the matbea
of a mitzvah are superior.a

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 The thought of happiness that comes from outside
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   the person, brings him sadness. But realizing
Author: Widen Your Tent      the value of one's will and the freedom brought
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    by uplifting its, brings great joy. - R' Kook

For a detailed and interesting discussion of this topic please see the article at

https://ohr.edu/this_week/insights_into_halacha/11482


Professor Yitzchok Levine
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