Avodah Mailing List

Volume 43: Number 54

Tue, 02 Sep 2025

• 1. Re: radical honesty? (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Kiddushin and Nisuin (Aryeh Frimer)
• 3. Re: radical honesty? (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: radical honesty? (Marty Bluke)
• 5. Re: Seudas Havraah (Micha Berger)
• 6. AI (was - pump toilet) (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Is "l'ahava" a verb or noun? (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: poalav vchamara (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Transitions (Micha Berger)

.
R' Joel Rich quoted a translation of Rav Mendel Shafran:

> And the reason that most of the gdolim do not use this (tcheilet)
> is not because they doubt the truth of the matter, but rather
> because in the last two hundred years there has been established
> an internal feeling that we don?t change things even if according
> to the strict hlacha one should have instituted them or changed
> them, and this is as a defense against destroyers who try to
> change and adapt.(halacha?)
> And to such an extent has this principle been established that
> there is power in daat torah to uproot a matter from the Torah,
> like the commandment of techelet. the rule being that even a
> change for the better is viewed by Torah scholars as the beginning
> of a breach whose end is not foreseeable, and this matter is in
> the category of 'the chachamim are able to uproot a matter from
> the Torah through inaction' (shev v'al ta'aseh).

This attitude is very consistent with what I've seen and heard from various
quarters over the decades. And it is consistent with certain writings that
have been written in recent centuries. In fact, I would agree that in many
cases, this attitude HAS been an effective protection against certain
influences which would be negative in the long run.

But one must be reasonable! I shudder to imagine that this attitude would
be used indiscriminately, even against halachos where (to use his words)
the gedolim do not doubt the truth of the matter.

What will happen when Moshiach comes? What will be the reaction of people
who have been nurturing this attitude for (direct quote:) "the last two
hundred years"?

When the circumstances arise that these selfsame gedolim no longer have
doubts about some Moshiach-related issue or person, will they be able to
follow THEIR OWN TRUTH? Or will inertia keep them locked into a "what might
this lead to" mindset?

Even worse: I can too easily imagine a situation where the gedolim might
accept their own truth about Moshiach, but their *followers* will reject
it. "Chadash assur min haTorah", they will cry! "Our leader has gone off
the derech! Our leader has been brainwashed by the modernists!"

Hashem Y'rachem.

Akiva Miller

DISCLAIMER: Do not extrapolate anything from the above to suggest my own
feelings about modern techeiles, or about any Moshiach-related issue. This
entire post is about honesty in paskening, and my fear that some might (to
paraphrase Rav Mendel Shafran) uproot Moshiach from the Torah through
inaction (shev v'al ta'aseh).
.
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Micha Berger nicely proves from  Rabbbenu Tam  (Sefer haYashar, shut 47:7)
that Rashi requires making Eirusin and Nissuin on two separate kosot. This
suggests that  eirusin and nissuin were back-to-back by Rashi's day.  I
remember from my youth hearing that eirusin and nissuin were placed
back-to-back because of the Crusades led to the destruction and uprooting
of communities and loss of contact between perspective Brides and Grooms. 
This in turn created serious agunah problems. The back to back arrangment 
meant of course that the marriage arrangements were completed in one day.
           Kol Tuv.  Shalom Al Yisrael

--------------------------------------------------
Professor Emeritus Aryeh A. Frimer
37 Hanassi Harishon
Rehovot 7630306, ISRAEL
E-mail (Preferred): Aryeh.Fri...@biu.ac.il
Cellphone: 972-54-7540761
Tel: 972-8-9473819/9470834
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryeh_Frimer



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On Mon, Sep 01, 2025 at 06:56:14PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> R' Joel Rich quoted a translation of Rav Mendel Shafran:
>> And the reason that most of the gdolim do not use this (tcheilet)
>> is not because they doubt the truth of the matter, but rather
>> because in the last two hundred years there has been established
>> an internal feeling that we don't change things even if according
>> to the strict hlacha one should have instituted them or changed
>> them, and this is as a defense against destroyers who try to
>> change and adapt.(halacha?)
`
> This attitude is very consistent with what I've seen and heard from various
> quarters over the decades. And it is consistent with certain writings that
> have been written in recent centuries. In fact, I would agree that in many
> cases, this attitude HAS been an effective protection against certain
> influences which would be negative in the long run.

Not just influences. Change itself. Halakhah, at least until the next
Sanhedrin providing central authority, needs a bit of rigidity to survive.

First, because .... mimeticism. It's a critical piece of the halachic
process. It allows us to follow eilu va'eilu and yet still forge a
consistent path that evolves in step with how the community evolves.

Second, if it is a separate issue because it's another aspect of
mimeticism, nostalgia is an important motivator. Rosh haShanah and Yom
Kippur are greatly enhanced when you know the old tunes. (How long has
the Ashkenazi melody for Kol Nidrei been in use, with only miniscule
evolution?) Or Eili Tzion. The Seder, of course, relies heavily on it.

> But one must be reasonable! ...

I wear murex-dyed strings, so I won't argue with this sentiment.

As for your fears about accepting the mashiach's reality... It is
small compared to the hurdle of accepting the Sanhedrin's! After all,
they are empowered to overrule Shas and Mishnayos.

Maybe that's why both Mashiach and the Sanhedrin will be preceded by
the return of the Navi who managed to convince the "nevi'ei" Ba'al.
So the actual challenge I foresee is whether we will be able to hold
onto the faith longer than they did.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You will never "find" time for anything.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   If you want time, you must make it.
Author: Widen Your Tent                        - Charles Buxton
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

From: Joel Rich <joelirar...@gmail.com>
> Attributed to rav mendel shafran who is a posek in bnei brak ? ? some
> radical honesty:
...
>> And the reason that most of the gdolim do not use this (tcheilet)is not
>> because they doubt the truth of the matter, but rather because in the last
>> two hundred years there has been established an internal feeling that we
>> don't change things even if according to the strict hlacha one should have
>> instituted them or changed them, and this is as a defense against
>> destroyers who try to change and adapt.(halacha?)

I think this is absolutely correct. IMHO the charedi objection to army
service is in a similar category. It is very clear that there is no real
halachic exemption for yeshiva students, the real reason is that they don't
want to change anything and they are afraid of what will happen if boys do
go to the army.

On Tue, Aug 26, 2025 at 10:34:11PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> I am bothered by the very last phrase there: <<< lo yochal KLUM ad halailah
> - he should not eat ANYTHING until the night. >>> Why can't he have a small
> snack? Is it really assur to eat ANYthing before the Seudas Havraah? The
> avel has had a very busy and emotional day, and he certainly didn't eat
> anything in the cemetery. Do we really want him to enter Shabbos hungry?

The AhS has a very different take. In OC 249:7 he says that Se'udas Purim
or a Se'udas Havraah is a mitzvah, they *ARE* eaten close to Shabbos.

In YD 378:1 (in Hil' Aveilus) the AhS says that the first meal should
be from food someone gave them, already made. (But if the mourner's
neighbors sin by not providing any, se'if 2 says he isn't obligated
to go hungry.) And afterward, even on the same day, they can eat
from their own cupboard. (At least, that's the Rosh, SA, and he says,
halakhah pesuqah. But he cites rishonim who disagree.)

I don't think it's possible to eat anything before the Se'udas Havraah.
Not that it's assur, but because it would *become* their Se'udas Havraah.
Even if akhilas arai.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 When faced with a decision ask yourself,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
Author: Widen Your Tent      at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                          - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Mon, Aug 18, 2025 at 01:31:21PM +0000, Harry Maryles via Avodah wrote:
> Found the following on ChatGPT (AI) in seconds. Can't vouch for its
> accuracy. But worthy of note:
...
>> A Q&A on MiYodeya (Judaism Stack Exchange) cites Rabbi Josh Flug (Sukkot
> To Go 5770)...

> Halachic authorities, such as on Chabad.org...
...
> A summary from Halachipedia...

> Further halachic discussion, for example on Toraland...

Light on primary sources.

In the future, I recommend Dikta's RabbAI. Dikta is a lab run by R Dr
Moshe Koppel, whom many of us have met or "met" online. I don't know
who wrote RabbAI.

But it's an AI that had a lot of training on rabbinic literature, as
opposed to the typical LLM which sticks to a more generic dataset. And
it isn't searching the web, it's searching the Bar Ilan CD.

https://rav.dicta.org.il/

As a humorous sample, here is a "teshuvah" about how one should not rely
on AI "teshuvos":
https://rav.dicta.org.il/chat/11cd2921-f25d-4ff7-a4c8-951f8b3a8320

And the list of sources:
    Eruvin 63a
    Hil' Talmud Torah 5:23; Sanhdrin 4:8
    Kesef Mishne: Talmud Torah 5:2
    Mahariq #169
    Maharshaldam YD 141
    Maharshal #98;
    Igeros Moshe YD 1:101
    Tur: YD 242:25
    BY: YD 242
    SA: YD 272:31, CM 25:1
    Levush YD 242:31, CM 25:1
    Chiddushei HaRashba: Eruvin 63a
    Shiyarei Knesset HaGedolah: YD #242

Not quite Halachipedia, Chabad.org, or a StackExchange contributor.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 For those with faith there are no questions.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   For those who lack faith there are no answers.
Author: Widen Your Tent                        - Rav Yaakov of Radzimin
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Sun, Aug 17, 2025 at 02:49:20PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> In learning Parshas Ekev, I came across the word "l'ahava" four times, most
> famously in the Shema, in the phrase "l'ahava es Hashem Elokeichem". As far
> as I could tell, *everyone" translates "l'ahava" as "to love".
> 
> My problem is that "ahava" is unambiguously a noun...

> PPS: It turns out that "le'ehov" never appears anywhere in Chumash, and
> only once in the rest of Tanach (that being Koheles 3:8). This fact could
> be used to suggest that the Torah used "l'ahava" because "le'ehov" was not
> yet in use. But that seems unlikely to me, given that another verb of the
> same form - "le'echol" (to eat) - appears 14 times in the Torah (not to
> mention 44 times in the rest of Tanach).

I think "le'ahavah" is more like the English idiom "to be in love". That
would explain the use of a noun form. And it implies something stronger
than "to love".

And it would explain whywe don't find parallels with most (any?) other
verbs.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Circumstances don't make a person,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   they reveal a person.
Author: Widen Your Tent
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 05:48:08PM -0400, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> The gemara sometimes refers to poalav v'chamarav (see avoda zara 63a). Is
> this just a common expression or is there a possible halachic difference
> between a worker and a donkey driver?

Just guessing:

A po'el is paid per hour.

The usual person who is paid per job is the uman, but that means an
artisan. The implication of the word is higher class than unskilled
labor.

A chamar is paid per task, but without that impllication.

What sparked this idea was when I noticed that so many places in gemara
that my search found the idiom "po'alav vechamarav" have similar comments
by Rashi. Something about the din under discussion is because of their
being amei ha'aretz or possibly even ovedei AZ.

So I think chamarav is simply an uneducated person who is paid by job,
so that noone thinks "po'alav" is being used to refer to people paid by
time, for some reason.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Weeds are flowers too
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   once you get to know them.
Author: Widen Your Tent             - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne)
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Sat, Aug 23, 2025 at 10:52:52PM -0400, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> R' Joel Rich asked:
>> If the transition in general from the bet medrash to the
>> working world weren't seen as natural, would that mean that
>> the "system" has room for improvement?

> I am really unsure what is being asked here. Is there a presumption that
> the transition from the bet medrash to the working world currently IS seen
> as natural? And what is meant by "natural" anyway?

I am not sure that we all share something RJR takes as an unstated given.
Which RAM points out.

That is a value specific to some derakhim of being able to be maqdish
the world.

But there are derakhim in which it is assumed that most men ought to
be aiming at torasam umenasam, and should only reluctantly and with
regret. It not being "natural" is seen as a feature, not a bug.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 You cannot propel yourself forward
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   by patting yourself on the back.
Author: Widen Your Tent                      -Anonymous
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF


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