Avodah Mailing List

Volume 43: Number 55

Fri, 05 Sep 2025

• 1. Does emunah require more than pure rationality? (Joel Rich)
• 2. Re: Does emunah require more than pure rationality? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Are We to Humiliate Sinners as Mitzvah Tochacha (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)

From hakira:
In your experience, does emunah require more than pure rationality?

R. Schachter: Yes. just as rationality is enough for the fact that George
Washington was the president of the United States. It is basic history.
Similarly, our people know this (the ikkarei emunah) from our historica
historical tradition. The experiential aspect (as discussed above), of
ley-da of hitabrut , makes one's emunah even stronger. But even without the
historical tradition, rationality alone is sufficient

Thoughts?

KVCT
Joel Rich
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On Tue, Sep 02, 2025 at 08:44:13PM -0400, Joel Rich wrote:
> From hakira:
>> In your experience, does emunah require more than pure rationality?
> 
> R. Schachter: Yes. just as rationality is enough for the fact that George
> Washington was the president of the United States. It is basic history.
> Similarly, our people know this (the ikkarei emunah) from our historica
> historical tradition..

Kuzari 101, or more accuratlely - sec. 1.

It is Rihal's explanation for why Hashem identifies Himself as "asher
hozeisikha mei'eretz Mitzrayim". Kuzari 1:25:
    The Chaver: In this way I answered your first question. In the
    same strain Moshe spoke to Pharaoh, when he told him: 'The G-d of
    the Hebrews sent me to you,' viz. the G-d of Avraham, Yitzchaq and
    Yaaqov. For Avraham was well known to the nations, who also knew that
    the Ruach haQodesh was in contact with the Avos, cared for them, and
    performed miracles for them. He did not say: 'The G-d of heaven and
    earth,' nor 'my Creator and yours sent me.' In the same way Hashem
    commenced His speech to the assembled Benei Yisrael: 'I am the G-d
    whom you worship, who has led you out of the land of Egypt,' but He
    did not say: 'I am the Creator of the world and your Creator.' Now
    I spoke to you, a Prince of the Khazars, in the same style when you
    asked me about my religion. I answered you as was fitting, and is
    fitting for the whole of Israel who knew these things, first from
    personal experience, and afterwards through uninterrupted tradition,
    which is equal to the former.

>                       The experiential aspect (as discussed above), of
> ley-da of hitabrut , makes one's emunah even stronger. But even without the
> historical tradition, rationality alone is sufficient

I think this is because we live after Kant's Critique of Pure Reason
had such major impact on Western Philosophy, and in the centuries since,
from philosophers to the masses.

The whole Kalam / Scholastic project isn't really how theology
is done anymomre. And that includes the Rishonim we tend to call
"Rationalist", who were most of the bridge from the Muslim Kalam to
Christian Scholasticism.

My apologies to the Rambam and the Ralbag, (and before them, to a great
extent, R Saadia Gaon) et al, but they were answering questions moderns
don't really have.

We don't expect HQBH's presence or the truth of the Torah to be provable.

Personally, since I believe both, I expect that in principle such proofs
do exist. There is actually a rock-solid line of reasoning from contemporary
evidence or first principles (whether the Empiricists or Idealists are
more correct, respectively) to Yahadus. But I believe, human beings are
simply incapable of identifying it.

After all, every line of reasoning starts with those givens. Our ability
to accept or question those givens aren't objective. We are far more
willing to accept the givens if they lead to a conclusion we already
decided to accept.

And, there are an infinity of questions one can ask about any idea.
And a finite ability to answer them. So, how does one decide whether
they came across a disproof, or a question they simply don't have an
answer to yet? Again, that assessment isn't done objectively, and
depends on whether they

As I posted numerous times, but none of them in the recent past (unless
I put it in my signature quote database?):
    The mind is a wonderful organ
    for justifying conclusions
    the heart already reached.

So, basically, emunah rests on things like the experience of Shabbos and
Talmud Torah. Not whether or not I *like* them, like it's a matter of
taste, but those features that people find beautiful. Like a beautiful
math proof, it coheres in a way that makes the Truth obvious.

(A math proof can be true and not "beautiful".)

So if living according to the Torah answers your Search for Meaning (as
Viktor Frankl put it) you can end up believing a "proof" that is flawed,
and if it doesn't, you can end up disbelieving that proof that Hashem
Alone Knows for sure isn't flawed.


In general, this is a problem I have with living according to Shitas
haRambam. He understands life's goal as a search for Truth in that
objective, Scholastic way.... You know what? If anyone cares about this
tangent, let me know and I'll start another discussion. Or maybe I will
find I did this already, and post a link. But this post is long enough
not to need a second topic appended to it.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   exactly the right measure of himself,  and
Author: Widen Your Tent      holds a just balance between what he can
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham

The RaMBaM seems to rule that we not humiliate sinners but only when we
begin
He writes Techilah
and in Teshuvah he writes that the sinner requires to be embarrassed in
order to repent

writes DeOs 6:7
It is a mitzvah to help a sinner and one who has strayed from the good
to return to good
to advise that he is harming himself with his evil actions
as [Leviticus 19:17] states: "You shall admonish your colleague."

One who admonishes a colleague
be it for a wrong committed against him or against Gd
it must be done in private.
He must speak patiently and gently, persuading that he is only concerned
for his colleague's welfare,
to allow him to merit eternal life.
If he accepts, it is good; but if not, he must rebuke him a second and
third time
and continue so until the sinner strikes him and tells him: "I will not
listen."

RaMBaM continues DeOs [6:8]
When first admonishing a colleague
one must not speak harshly that he is embarrassed
as [Leviticus 19:17] states: "[You should]... not bear a sin because of
him"
meaning, as Chazal explained, one might imagine the sinner be admonished
harshly until he is humiliated,
however, our Sages said: Ought we rebuke him to the point that his face
changes [colour]? [No] the Torah states: "[You should]... not bear a sin
because of him."
From this, [we learn that] it is forbidden for a person to embarrass a
[fellow] Jew. How much more so [is it forbidden to embarrass him] in
public. Even though a person who embarrasses a colleague is not [liable
for] lashes on account of him, it is a great sin. Our Sages said: "A person
who embarrasses a colleague in public does not have a share in the world to
come."

However, in Hilchos Teshuvah [4:2] e) One who hates admonishment because
this denies him a path to repentance. Admonishment leads to Teshuvah. When
a person is informed about his sins 'U'Machlimin Osso' and is shamed [by
the admonisher] because of them, he will repent. Accordingly, [rebukes are]
included in the Torah ...



Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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