Avodah Mailing List

Volume 44: Number 27

Fri, 08 May 2026

• 1. Re: minhag hapashut (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: psak from aged (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Arba'a Turim (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Arba'a Turim (Simon Montagu)

On Wed, Apr 22, 2026 at 06:14:12AM +0300, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> The Aruch HaShulchan uses the phrase 201 times in the AHS. In only one of
> those cases (allowing bells on a Sefer Torah on Shabbat -- O"C 338:3) does he
> add b'chol ha'olam. Any ideas?

Could it be something as balebatish as in those cases he knew
the Sepharadi minhagim matched? Whereas usually his scope was
East European or at best Ashkenaz only?

Remember how big the world was when he was writing.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Wed, Mar 11, 2026 at 01:49:19PM +0200, Joel Rich via Avodah wrote:
> [I'm converting the opening quote to something our digest software can
> handle. -micha]
> 
> Rambam Hilkhos Sanhedrin 2:3:
>     Ein ma'amidim bekhol haSanhedrin
>     - lo zaqei muflag bashanim
...

> Given the above, was there ever a time in halachic history where a poseik's
> psak was (or his ability to give psak) was questioned based on this
> exclusion? If not, why not?

You mean in cases where the poseiq was known to be fully mentally
capable still? I am not saying the Rambam is referring to a "zaqiein
muflag bashanim" as only someone outright senile. I was thinking maybe
he means someone who is growing a bit forgetful, but functions day-to-day
well enough.

Or maybe this is a din in Sanhedrin, because the problem isn't in
pesaq, but in legislation. I just cannot see why.

Vehadarta penei zaqein.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 35th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   5 weeks in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Malchus sheb'Hod: What is soul-like about
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                submission, and how is it glorious?

On Tue, Feb 24, 2026 at 12:00:12PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> Most translations render "tur" as "row", but very unfortunately, most
> people read that without realizing that "row" is an ambiguous word. They
> think that the four turim are horizontal rows, like in a chart or table,
> with the first row on top, and the fourth on the bottom. But isn't it true
> that the predecessor to the Shulchan Aruch, namely the Arbaa Turim, is
> often depicted as four vertical *columns*?

As per your usage, we usually call a vertical row a "column".

...

> In our parsha, Onkelos translates "tur" as "sidra" - an orderly
> arrangement, like Wiktionary's first definition, not related to rows or
> columns. I believe this is also true of how "tur" is used in Melachim 1
> 7:12, Yechezkel 46:23, and Divrei Hayamim 2 4:3.
> In our parsha, Onkelos translates "tur" as "sidra" - an orderly
> arrangement...

From which we get the word "tor", as in a turn or an appointment. I
thought of it as a row in time.

I think the usage in Melakhim is a (horizonal) row. The cedar beams
stood vertically, like the kerashim they replace, in a row.

Similarly, Yechezqeil's "hatiros" are layers of brick. Physical
horizontal row.

And Divrei haYamim is talking about rows of cow images "saviv saviv".

So I see all of the citations as talking about horizontal rows.

> Encyclopedia Talmudit, volume 1, has an article titled "Avnei Choshen
> v'Ephod", which brings two opinions at the top of column 93. According to
> the Pesikta Zutresa (Parshas Tetzaveh, and Chizkuni there), the four turim
> are horizontal rows, and the three jewels of each row are placed in the
> Choshen from right to left. According to Minchas Chinuch 99, the four turim
> are vertical columns; the first column being on the right, and the three
> jewels of each column are placed in the Choshen from top to bottom.

Despite my inability to find a use of "tur" to mean column, the
MC concludes it must mean that here because (1) symmetry would have
it match the columns of names on the avnei shoham; (2) the kohein
gadol's body is more of a column shape than a row; (3) we read
in columns of rows, eg amudim in a sefer Torah. 

This is after citing the Ramban as saying the names were arranged
horizonally.

The MC makes other arguments, but I am not sure how they differ from #3.

See a physical copy or
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14093&;pgnum=224
because the usual suspects are text only, so the tables he uses
to show you the layouts don't make sense.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 35th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   5 weeks in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Malchus sheb'Hod: What is soul-like about
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                submission, and how is it glorious?

On Thu, May 7, 2026 at 4:34?PM Micha Berger via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 24, 2026 at 12:00:12PM -0500, Akiva Miller via Avodah wrote:
> > In our parsha, Onkelos translates "tur" as "sidra" - an orderly
> > arrangement...
>
> From which we get the word "tor", as in a turn or an appointment. I
> thought of it as a row in time.


That is a completely different word, spelled with a tav not a tet.
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