Avodah Mailing List

Volume 44: Number 29

Mon, 25 May 2026

• 1. All 24000 died (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 2. "community" practices (Joel Rich)
• 3. Was Moav Monotheistic? (Akiva Miller)

Thank you for the comprehensive reflections on the history and context of
that event.

One must however consider that Chazal employed various events to highlight
their perspective of the Divine Will
their main objective being
Moral lessons we must learn from these historical events
and even if they exaggerated in order to embellish a point or two
is this not perfectly legitimate and a successful strategy?

Chazal describe the admission of Achan
he violated the Cherem of Yericho
and in the next war the Yidden suffered defeat
After various Divinely inspired tests
and a lottery
Achan admitted
Yehoshua QUICKLY dispatched messengers to collect the evidence.

What was the hurry?
Yehoshua was afraid that Shevet Yehudah
rather than being happy to have eliminated the evil from their midst
would go to war with the other tribes
to defend the honour of their tribe
and therefore were suspected of taking and concealing the incriminating
evidence.
See Rashi there

This from the generation known as the Doe DeAh
who witnessed for many years
Bread from Heaven
Water from a Rock
and clouds that led and protected them

The witnessed crossing the Yarden
described as greater and more miraculous the KeRiyas Yam Suf
the miraculous war against Yericho

They had been in EY for a couple of weeks or months
and they are already close to having a civil war.

Whether this is absolutely true
or not
is not germane to Chazals discussion
they have a lesson to teach -
Doss Is Der Mensch.

As for the last remaining 1000 Talmidim of R Akiva
Chazal I feel, want us to ask
What the blazes were they thinking
and would WE think/rationalise any differently?



Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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non-Jewish men, since once it is the established practice, it is considered
established, and we even derive from the practices of non-Jews.
It is also possible to say that he is referring to Jews, that in a place
where they have all instituted this practice together, we do not protest
against them.?
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from? Psychologically? Do they apply to other issurim?

KT
Joel Rich
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.
For this post, I will assume that we agree that Lo Siten Michshol applies
to all sorts of bad advice, but particularly to advice which encourages the
listener to do something forbidden. Further, it applies even when giving
advice to a non-Jew, if the advice is to do something which is forbidden
for non-Jews. If you disagree with any of that, please start a new thread.

If so, I am very surprised by the advice which Naami gave to Ruth (1:15):
"Look, Orpah went back to her people and to her religion; you too, go
follow her." It sounds to me like Naami is advising Ruth to return to her
old Avodah Zara. How is this not a violation of Michshol?

I do understand that there is a famous machlokes on whether or not Orpah
and Ruth had yet converted to Judaism at this point of the story.
Irrelevant! Even if Ruth was still a non-Jew, how could Naami advise her to
follow Orpah back to their Avodah Zara, given that it is assur even for
non-Jews? In fact, having seen that Orpah DID go back to her old way,
shouldn't that have been a wake-up call to *protect* Ruth from that
likelihood?

I suppose it is possible that Naami's intention was, "Go follow Orpah back
to her people, but not to her religion." (I think I saw Alshich quoted as
suggesting this.) But considering how very grave Avodah Zara is, I think it
still crosses the line into Michshol. (Especially according to my
understanding of the Torah Temimah #58, that once they would go back to
their people, it's virtually certain that they'd go back to the religion
too.)

Couldn't Naami have suggested something like, "I have nothing, and I can't
support you. But you're still better off with me than with the Avodah
Zara-niks in Moav."?

This question has bothered me for decades, but I think I have an answer,
and I hope the chevra can confirm or disprove it. Namely: I suspect that at
the time of this story, Moav was monotheistic, or at least, had a
significant monotheist minority. This would solve the Michshol problem
(admittedly only for the opinion that Orpah and Ruth were not yet Jewish),
because there's nothing wrong with a monotheist non-Jew. "Orpah went back
to her previous monotheistic religion, and so should you."

What does the pasuk say about this theory? Naami's actual words to Ruth
were that Orpah had returned to her people and to "eloheha", i.e., "her
elohim". Now, we all know that "elohim" is a tricky word to translate.
Sometimes it can mean "gods", as in "elohim acherim". And sometimes it
means "God", as in "Hashem Elokeinu". What does it mean *here*?

Curiously, ArtScroll translates this pasuk both ways! In their Tanach,
"eloheha" is rendered "her gods", but in the Shavuos Machzor, and also in
their one-volume "The Book of Ruth", it is "her god" - in the singular.
According to this, Orpah did indeed go back to her prior monotheistic
religion!

Of course, I do realize NOT to put too much stock in a translator's whim,
or what might even have been an unintentional typo. That's why I'm asking
if anyone else can contribute anything. Thanks in advance!

Akiva Miller
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