Avodah Mailing List

Volume 44: Number 30

Sat, 30 May 2026

• 1. normative standard (Joel Rich)
• 2. Re: Was Moav Monotheistic? (Akiva Miller)
• 3. third churban (Joel Rich)
• 4. Re: All 24000 died (Micha Berger)
• 5. Administriva: We are moving to Discourse, but the emailing can continue (mi...@aishdas.org)

Do you have an underlying approach as to when chazal used some kind of
 normative
standard and said that we ignore individual deviation (batla dato) such as
kviat seudah and when they said we must look at that specific individual's'
specifics such as maaleh lugmav? (also many non-food applications
KT
Joel Rich
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.
R' Isaac Balbin wrote:
> Several mefarshim (and this is hinted at in Rus Rabbah)
> understand Naomi's words not as a sincere recommendation but
> as a nisayon ? she was actively trying to dissuade Ruth and
> Orpah from following her, precisely to ensure that whoever
> did follow her was doing so l'shem shamayim. The "advice"
> was a probe, not a pesak

This actually strengthens my question!

Megilas Rus 1:15 does not tell us what Naami said to Orpah. Rather, after
Orpah has already left and returned "to her people and to her religion",
and she advises Ruth to do the same. My question is why Naami didn't
realize how the odds were stacked: If Orpah returned to Avodah Zara, it is
likely that Ruth would do so also. Whatever Naami's intentions were, how
did she not realize the tragic consequences?

Even according to the Alshich, who was cited as interpreting Naami's words
to be, "go follow Orpah back to your people, but only to your people, not
to their religion", didn't Naami realize the lion's den that she was
offering? It seems to me almost the very definition of "michshol" - "Ruth,
dearest, go back to Moav, and see if you can hold on to your monotheism in
an entire nation of avodah zara-niks." Seriously?

My understanding is that if an idolater approaches us with a desire to
become Jewish, we do not simply rebuff him, urging him to stay in his
idolatry. That would be Lifnei Iver! Rather, we explain that there's no
need to accept the Taryag Mitzvos, he can get into Gen Eden simply by
accepting the Sheva Mitzvos. Why didn't Naami suggest this?

Again, I do realize that Naami was penniless, and had nothing to offer Ruth
financially. But is that a good enough reason to send her to Moav?

Akiva Miller
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Rav Herzog reportedly said that he has a tradition that there will not
be a destruction
of the Jewish settlement in Israel. The Brisker Rav reportedly responded
that he has a tradition that when people shoot, we run (Be-Ikvei Ha-Tzon,
p. 215).
Me-might these approaches be indicative of differing world views (more
focus on the individual vs collective, and, if so, how does one determine
which is more appropriate in a place and a time?)

KT
Joel Rich
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On the Lehrhaus, R Chaim Katz suggests that R Sherira Gaon's "shamda"
does refer to R Aqiva's students died fighting the Romans. But he
suggests it wasn't during Hadrian's suppression of the Bar Kokhva revolt.

See https://thelehrhaus.com/holidays/did-r-akivas-students-die-in-the-bar-kokhba-revolt

There are a number of Maamarei Chazal that wouldn't work with
my collapsed timespan. To give just one of his examples:

    Hanina b. Hakhinai and R. Shimon b. Yochai went to learn Torah before
    R. Akiva in Bene Barak and stayed there for 13 years. (Genesis Rabbah
    95:30 ed. Theodor and Albeck, Leviticus Rabbah 21:8)

So the second round of students started 13 years before R Aqiva's arrest,
or in 118 ce. 117 was Quitus's campaign against Judea. (And in M Sotah
9:16, this is when the Sanhedrin banned making crowns for brides and
teaching one's children Greek.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   In that space is our power to choose our
Author: Widen Your Tent      response. In our response lies our growth
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

Our discussion lists are moving to https://aishdas.discourse.group/
. BUT, you will all start off with email interfaces to the Avodah, Areivim
and Mesorah topics as per your current subscriptions.

Why?

A few months back I lamented the moribund state of email lists and how it
was killing our chevraschaft. There was no clear consensus, but staying on
the mail server had the biggest minority.

Well, the decision was taken out of my hands. Our landlords, DreamHost.com,
are ending their MailMan support on July 21st. We have to move. And I don't
have the time right to move the whole aishdas.org to a new host.

After checking the options, both first-hand and asking a couple of AIs that
can search options, Discourse was the best free option that would allow us
to continue our email and relly-to-email current interface while also being
close enough to social media to continue getting people's attention.

Stay tuned for a one week warning once I have everything set up.

Shetir'u baTov!
Micha
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