Avodah Mailing List

Volume 41: Number 52

Fri, 14 Jul 2023

• 1. Re: Names and Families (Akiva Miller)
• 2. Kli Sheni (Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer)
• 3. Kamtza Bar Kamtza - How Much Are The Rabbis to Blame? (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 4. Re: Kamtza Bar Kamtza - How Much Are The Rabbis to Blame? (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Kli Sheni (Micha Berger)
• 6. Golem (Joel Rich)
• 7. a few questions (Joel Rich)

.
Regarding the genealogy that we find in Pinchas, perek 26. I had asked:

> I find it odd that for every single person listed here, his
> name is followed by the name of his family, yet there is really
> no new information being taught to us, because in every single
> case, the name of the family is essentially identical to the
> person's name, except for some grammatical adjustments to convert
> the proper name into an adjective.

I found a satisfying answer in Rashi on pasuk 26:5. The key to
understanding his answer is that there is more than one way "to convert the
proper name into an adjective", and in every single case, Hashem did it by
adding a Heh as a prefix and a Yud as a suffix, except in one particular
case where the Heh was sufficient and the Yud would have been superfluous.

Akiva Miller
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Has anyone here ever looked into the physics of Kli Sheni?

?Get BlueMail for Android ?
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The Rabbis placating Agrippa - You ARE our brother, Sota 41
and the terrible consequences the Gemara discusses there

The Maharsha seems to suggest they were technically correct  - the sin had
already been violated because the prohibition is to APPOINT, and he seems
to be implying there was/is no duty to dismiss Agrippa - so they indicated
Agrippa need not fear, they will NOT dismiss him,
Although both Sefaria and AlHaTorah translations offer that the entire
nation were saying You Are Our Brother,
it seems to me that it was the Sages who were being Chonef.

This excuse in fact, likely makes it worse, because a technicality is being
abused - it's not cricket
actually it is worse - it is below the belt
it is using the Torah itself to undermine The Will of HKBH and His Torah
it is making a mockery of HKBH and His Torah.

Seems to the same with D HaMelech who pronounced that the neighbour who
took the sheep deserves to DIE
death is not the punishment for stealing a sheep
but deserving death for the outrage is fair equitable and required in order
to maintain society
that seems to be the spirit of the Law

In the episode with Kamza and bar Kamtza,
When the host discovered his enemy at the party, he insisted he leave.
He refused all entreaties from bar Kamtza to not embarrass him
He refused all offers to pay, even to pay for the entire party.
The Host physically evicted bar Kamtza
who, the Gemara tells us, reflected NOT ABOUT his host
but about the Sages
who were sitting there and did not protest

Is this the intent of the Gemara?
Is this perhaps the MAIN message of the story?

The Sages not only wronged the victim who was publicly humiliated with
their tacit support
they also failed the aggressor; they permitted him to violate another Yid

and they supported this IN PUBLIC
In fact our Sages inflicted a devastating wound upon themselves and those
they are responsible for
and He who they are responsible to

If anything this is the REAL erosion of Torah values
and source of HKBHs anger
and the Churban

Our Sages legitimised abuse of power and influence
of the powerful and wealthy over the weak and vulnerable in society
Those that The Torah repeatedly emphasises, need to be protected

Has anyone seen Meforshim who comment on this perspective?

Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837
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On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 09:41:12AM +1000, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi via Avodah wrote:
> The Rabbis placating Agrippa - You ARE our brother, Sota 41
> and the terrible consequences the Gemara discusses there

There is also the silance of the Rabbanim who were at the anonymous
host's party and didn't do enough to stop Bar Qamtza's humiliation. The
medrash's version has it the same R Zekhariah ben Avqulus the gemara
(Gittin 55b) says refused to allow an animal with a mum on the mizbeiach.

The story is interrupted for this editorializing:

    Amar R' Yochanan:
    Anvanuso shel R Zekhariah be Avqulus
    hecherivah es beiteinu
    vesaraf es Heikhaleinu
    vehiglisanu meiArtzeinu.

Blame is CLEARLY laid at the leadership's feet. Even though this gemara
illustrates the sin'as chinam that Yuma (9b, and Y-mi 1:1 too)  said led
to the qorban, attention is drawn elsewhere.

...
> The Maharsha seems to suggest they were technically correct  - the sin had
> already been violated because the prohibition is to APPOINT, and he seems
> to be implying there was/is no duty to dismiss Agrippa - so they indicated
> Agrippa need not fear, they will NOT dismiss him,

And not allowing the mum was also technically correct. And someone who
refuses the mantal of leader will follow black letter law, be machmir
when there is none, and not rely on his own seikhel.

I think Chazal are clear at blaming failures in the general culture on
failures of its leadership.

Anvanuso deRav Zekhariah ben Avqulus... Being an anvan doesn't mean being
to scared to pasqen when a pesaq is needed or to teach about the ills
of sin'as chinam when a mussar shmuess is needed.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Education is not the filling of a bucket,
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   but the lighting of a fire.
Author: Widen Your Tent                   - W.B. Yeats
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF

On Tue, Jul 11, 2023 at 08:36:16AM -0400, Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer via Avodah wrote:
> Has anyone here ever looked into the physics of Kli Sheni?

AhS Yomi was recently there in hilkhos taaroves. (Which I assume could
be why 

When it comes to Shabbos, since the melakhah is haMevasheil, being a
cook, rather than cooking in general, one can talk about "derekh bishul"
and rule out a keli sheini that way.

But when it comes to pelitas issur... A keli rishon full of 160deg F
soup isn't going to cook meat any less than a keli sheini that has been
holding a gallon of 211deg soup for the past 2 minutes.

The fact that a keli sheini that is at yad soledes bo isn't treated
like a keli rishon that is yad soledes bo tells me that physics is the
wrong discipline.

I would invoke the same idea I invoked to justify continue using
Aristotilian ideas of impetus to define hotza'ah, instead of Newtonian
momentum. (Ymi Shabbos, vilna 65a) We are less concerned with what
objectively happens than what the human gut expects to happen. I spell
it out at
https://aspaqlaria.aishdas.org/2011/04/24/aristotle-science-and-halakhah/

Aristo didn't conduct experiments. So his Natural Philosophy is based
on what people expect to happen. He was very good at systemetizing such
expectations. So, he is more usable for halakhah than science is.

This then dovetails well with tartegrades or other microscopic animals
being kosher. Another area where science posits things we don't expect
or experience.

And if the whole reason is that halakhah's purpose is to refine the self
/ help one achieve deveiqus (nod to "Forks"), then it makes sense that
what matters is how people react on a primal level below what they know
in the abstract.

Broadening it that way would allow safeiq vs qavua, the current AhSY
topic, to be under the same umbrella.

You / RYGB once pointed me to this quote from BeTorato shel Rav Gedalia
(pg 52-53 http://www.zootorah.com/controversy/Hebrewbooks_org_37016.pdf#page31
)
    This is the reason to distinguish between "kol deparish" and "qavua":
    When we find a piece of meat outdoors and want to establish its
    characteristics -- with regard to this piece, all the stores in the
    city are one "mixture" from which this piece came. This "mixture" is
    the background behind this piece, and we establish the characteristics
    of this piece according to collective substance of the mixture,
    that is to say, according to the majority of stores.

    In contrast to this, when a person enters a store and buys meat
    there -- the stores are not a mixture one with the other. Rather,
    every store is known and recognized in its place. And if afterwards
    he wants to remember which store he bought from and it cannot be
    recalled, truthfully he must relate to it as an unknown. ...
...
    In truth we find this distinction also in relation to human nature.
    A person knows that there is a treif store and other kosher stores.
    He will be cautious of the treif store, and it stance in his
    awareness on its own. If by chance he enters the store and forgest
    where he entered, he knows he is in a situation of doubt. Which is
    unlike someone who finds meat outside the stores, here everything
    is reduced to this [one] piece of meat. There is not clear issur,
    and it is more fitting to rely on majority. And in general, this
    is the idea in all prohibitions and all mitzvos, that the halachic
    limits are set according to human impressions and attitudes.

More on sadeiq and Phenomenalism at
https://aspaqlaria.aishdas.org/2018/01/24/phenomenalism-baruch-shekivanti

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   or something in your life actually attracts more
Author: Widen Your Tent      of the things that you appreciate and value into
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.

Any thoughts on why the chacham tzvi decided to address the golem issue. I
understand that there were Kabbalistic masters, who claimed the ability.
Perhaps there were also secular myths and stories (alchemists et al) at the
time?
She-nir?eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu
Joel Rich
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A couple of questions came up over Shabbat , which I was wondering if you
have any insight into
The machloket between Rashi and Tosafot, as to whether kal vachomer is the
only one of the 13 midot that one can learn on their own without a
tradition or is  gzeira shaava the only one  needing a tradition seems very
late in the game (meaning one would?ve expected to see this disagreement
articulated earlier on)

Somewhat similar on Dina dmalchuta, why did it wait until Shmuel to be
articulated?

Lastly, on the Gemara in Magilla which discusses saying kriat shma lmafrea
the conclusion dvarim hadvarim lo mashma- how would you explain the
disagreement to a 13-year-old as to why one party would say that is worthy
of a drasha and the other party says no?

She-nir?eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu

Joel Rich
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